Buppy

Flip and Happy aren't 3rd liners; they are top-6 complementary players. We were deep enough in '09 to play them on the third line even though they were advanced enough in their development to play a larger role. While it would be great if we could keep them there, we can't afford it anymore unless we find a very cheap star caliber player (fingers crossed for Nyquist or Tatar next year). We'll likely have a ton of cap space at the deadline this year, but few good assets to trade for anyone of impact. Next year we likely won't have the cap space to re-sign Hudler and pick up even one "Player Worth His While", much less two. In '09, Flip was excellent for a 3rd liner. Happy was phenomenal as a 3rd liner/PP specialist. Last year both had mediocre years. Happy was horrible the first half, very good the second. Flip looked great (as usual) but the production wasn't there. With Helm and Abby RFAs, Eaves, Miller, Emmerton, and Mursak signed, and other prospects knocking on the door our bottom-6 and reserves should be set. Flip and Happy either need to produce like legit top-6 forwards or be moved for someone better (we likely will have the cap space to upgrade one of them, though maybe not both). They are two of our few potentially tradeable assets, and playing roles where we need better performance; hence all the trade talk.

Both Nyquist and Hudler lean more toward the playmaker side than finisher, though both can score goals pretty well.

The unfortunate side of Bruno's fine pre-season is that he probably wouldn't clear waivers.

I think you (and a lot of others) need to watch the video again. When Ben toe drags, his left shoulder moves forward relative to his head. Brendan took a bad line to the hit. The suspension does seem a bit harsh, but hopefully he'll learn from it. Not just to avoid penalties/suspensions or to avoid hurting people but to be a better player. A few people pointed out that the hit was just a couple inches from being a good shoulder to shoulder check. But it was also a couple inches the other way from blowing by him altogether and leaving Ben with a clear break on goal. Brendan actually had to lean in a bit to make contact.

You're talking about the future man... I assume we'll have some sort of laser-based defense grid guarding the nets by then. Howard and McCollum will probably be converted to defense drone pilots.

Using this year's cap number, we have just under $29M in free space next year. After Smith, a backup goalie, and the rest of the defense, we'd likely have around $10-12M left for the forwards. Helm could easily get $3M+ if he continues to improve, and we should probably expect $2.5 at least. Abby, depending on this season could be anywhere from $1-3M himself. I don't really see Emmerton and Andersson both on the roster (maybe not even either). Tatar I think will be up. So that would leave us around $5-7M for two spots. Probably looking for a top-6 winger, and a bottom 6 forward. Flip - Pav - ?/Cleary Mule - Hank - ?/Cleary Tatar - Helm/Abby - Eaves/Mursak Miller/? - Abby/Helm - Mursak/Eaves Emmerton or Anderson - Miller/? There'll potentially be some big names next summer: Semin, Doan, Sharp, Boyes, Grabovski, possibly Parise... I think we'll target one of them, then a cheap grinder for the last spot. If the cap goes up and/or we fill all the other spots cheaper, I could see us targeting a 2nd tier FA as well: Ruutu, Kunitz, Stoll, Stempniak... This isn't considering any potential trades this year though, which I think is fairly likely. If Bettman and the owners try to force the cap down, we'll probably have another lockout and I'll stop caring.

1. Nick (This last Norris season finally nudged him ahead of Stevie) 2. Hasek (Narrowly over Shanny and Hull) 3. Weber/Parise (Selanne for the longest time, but he's too old now) 4. McCarty (He was just such a 'Red Wing', still bugs me that he left) 5. Wendel Clark (Always hated him, at least he wasn't here long)

Can't really grade someone when none of us actually know what he really did. We only see the results. It's like trying to judge how a player played based only on the box score. Based solely on the results I'd give this year a D. Judging on a curve based on my assumption of what the real options were, probably C+.

I don't think you can call those years a 'fall' just because we didn't do well in the playoffs. '98-99 was kind of a 'down' year, and the last time we finished under 100 points. In the six non-Cup years between then and '08 we won 2 President's Trophies, finished 2nd overall 3 times, and 3rd once. Between the back-back Cups and the '02 Cup the stars mostly stayed the same. Hasek was pretty major move, but Hull, Robitaille, Chelios, and other moves were just tweaks. Something like trading Flip. The emergence of Pav and Hank, and having Nick as a constant allowed us to transition from Yzerman, Fedorov, and Shannahan without a hitch. This is different I think. Losing Nick is a major hit, and we don't have anyone ready to fill that hole. Since the lockout it's become even harder to find good free agents (as this year should prove). That alone could knock us down a notch. And not too long after we'll need Pav and Hank to pass the torch. We have some prospects that may become stars, but if they don't it could be enough to drop us down among the bottom-feeders. Also, if those guys don't pan out, we won't have the trade assets to do anything either. In short, the run has to end sooner or later. How we replace Nick will probably determine which.

I think Boyes would look pretty good in that spot. Not sure if he'd be available, or what it would take to get him (Buffalo only gave up a 2nd), but I think he could get back to 30+ goals in that situation. He could fit pretty well on the 3rd line too, if he didn't produce. Zherdev could work there too, but that's more of a boom or bust move. Flip-Pav-Boyes Mule-Hank-Homer Bert-Abby-Cleary Huds-Helm-Eaves Miller-Mursak

We may have the cap space, but we don't have the roster space. We'd need to give someone up to get one of those guys. The only real options would be Kindl or Emmerton. If I was giving up Kindl, I'd want something better than McCabe or Hannan. I wouldn't mind giving up Emmy, though I think that would work better in combination with another deal to give us another center.

Two reasons for that: Emmerton is already "ours", and Conner isn't particularly good anyway. Also, Miller would play center before Hudler. Hudler will never play center at even strength. Not on Babcock's team. We'd grab a junk FA first, or a call-up. Franzen would also play ahead of Hudler. Really, if both Pav and Hank were out, we'd probably go to three lines, with Flip, Mule, and Cleary double shifting at times: Cleary-Flip-Homer/Hudler Bert-Abby-Mule Miller-Helm-Eaves Cleary/Mule-Flip/Mule-Hudler With Mursak/Emmerton/Conner spot shifting here and there, regular shifts only when the games aren't close. Having "playmaking skills" doesn't necessarily mean he's a playmaker in the NHL. The skills actually have to be good enough to matter, which at this point that seems suspect. He barely managed a point every other game in the AHL. Putting a marginal playmaker in that lineup instead of Conner really doesn't improve anything. That lineup sucks regardless of what plug is rounding out the bottom. You could also argue that Conner's overall skills are better, which would make him more effective. In practically the same number of AHL games, Conner had 25 more assists (and 38 more goals). SO, again, Emmerton's style or level of offense doesn't matter. The only thing that makes him a better option is that he's a center (or was in the AHL at least...we don't really know if he can handle the position in the NHL yet), and that Conner's skills are also pretty negligible. But compared to an established NHL player, especially a guy with real NHL skill, Emmy loses badly. Of the few FAs left, I'd take Wellwood easy over him, and also Zherdev. I'd consider Samsanov or Dupont even, though that'd be kind of a waste since I doubt I'd slot either in the top 12. Same goes for the old guys, I think they're all better than Emmy, but not good enough that I'd want them as regulars. Counting trades, there'd be a ton of guys I'd take over Emmy, and not just "star" players.

Hudler is not an NHL center, and Mule only in an emergency. Pav, Hank, Flip, Helm, and Abby are the only real centers, aside from Emmy. Two of them get hurt we'd need a center, so that's why we'd want Emmy. But if it's a wing position, anyone else on the roster would fit better, including Conner.

So...is he actually trying to force a labor stoppage with every new CBA? Gotta keep the streak alive?

I don't know too much about Conner either, but I'm reasonably sure he and Emmerton can sit in the press box at the same speed. Conner was signed to add competition, I think, not because he really adds anything to the team. Our bottom 6 already has excellent speed with Helm, Mursak, Eaves, Abby is pretty quick, and there's a good chance we see one of Cleary or Flip on the 3rd line. Even Miller hustles enough to seem quicker than he really is.

Emmerton isn't any more of a scorer than Mursak, or Abby, or Helm, or even Eaves, Miller, or Conner. The only thing Emmy really has going for him is that he can play center. Doesn't have great size or speed, hasn't displayed any remarkable skills, his AHL production hasn't been particularly good... Being younger and familiar with our system certainly don't hurt, but if he was a winger I'd say he'd be behind Conner right now. Versatility beats speed when you're talking about reserves. But I really don't think Emmy has a future with this team, barring any surprising developmental surge. We already have five centers (6 if you count Mule as an emergency center) above him on the depth chart, he doesn't really add anything special to the wing, and we've got a few more centers in the system that will likely pass him in a few years. I think at most he hangs around for a few years until the kids behind him are ready. Really, unless we want to trade Flip or Abby (which is a possibility) there isn't any reason to keep him. As it is, he and Mursak are 13/14 until training camp. When we're healthy, they'll likely rotate with Miller, Eaves, and maybe Abby or Hudler if they don't produce. I wouldn't mind if we dumped Emmy to take a chance on Zherdev. At worst, Zherdev sucks and gets a permanent seat and guys like Miller, Eaves, and Mursak have to sit less. And obviously, if we get a real top-6 forward it would be even better. Buffalo needs to shed some cap, and maybe hoping Kotalik can bounce back with them. Wonder if Boyes could be available.

Chimera would have barely got them under, leaving no room for call-ups. Fehr seems kind of like their version of Hudler; a skilled guy who hadn't been able to grab a top-6 spot. But I don't think they're done though. I imagine they still want to sign Alzner, and I'd guess Poti will either retire or get dumped, so they'll probably save a little there. Maybe they just didn't like Fehr. They didn't get much in return.

Both have two-way deals, but both still have to clear waivers. Two-way deals do not affect regular waivers. On-topic: I chose Emmerton, only because there was no 'other' option. I'm still hoping for another regular forward that can challenge for a top-6 or 3rd scoring line role.

The guys in bold would not be UFAs next year, unless for some crazy reason the team owning their rights either walks away from an arbitration award or fails to qualify them. 27 years old or 7 seasons as a pro for UFA. But aside from that, yeah, next looks to be a significantly better UFA crop, especially at forward.

I don't know. I remember another team trading a big young superstar to Philly not all that long ago, and it seemed to work out pretty well for them...

Yeah, Kenny should have planned better, like the Sharks. Then maybe we could have zero Cups or trips to the finals, but we'd all feel so much better after losing in the 3rd round two years in a row. The Sharks have been pretty 'creative' post lockout, if you define creative as 'making big trades'. Two blockbuster deals before these Minny trades. Haven't won s*** yet, and it's debateable if they're even any better this year. Stop kidding yourself. This isn't about wanting the Wings to win. Big trades and big signings don't guarantee anything, and I'm sure you'd admit that if you could be honest with yourself. You, and all the other whiners now bashing Kenny just got your hopes up for some big, exciting move and now you're butt-hurt because you didn't get it. Like a spoiled kid on Christmas that didn't get that shiney, new, must-have toy of the season. You're incapable of appreciating what you do get. Like Veruca Salt. No matter what you get you always want more. The more you get, the more you're convinced that it's always possible to get everything and a good Daddy would get it for you. But in the real world, sometimes the store's sold out, especially when the stock was low in the first place. Sometimes, when you're trying to guess what the future holds, you're wrong. Sometimes Wonka doesn't want your money, no matter how much you offer. You don't know what Kenny tried to do, or is still trying to do. You just assume, since the result was less than you'd hoped for, that he didn't try. Or he was stupid, or he's lazy and sucks. People were saying the same s*** in '00, and again '06. A lesser GM might have blown up the team, and we'd be a Cup or two shorter or even in full on rebuild mode like the Avs. In the space of two years, we have made it through a pretty significant cap crunch while still staying a legit contender. Pretty good work, even if the teams weren't quite as good as we'd have liked. Now we've got the cap room, but we haven't found anyone to spend it on yet, and maybe won't at all this year. But all you can do is act like it's the end of the world because maybe we're only a good team instead of elite. That doesn't make you a discerning fan; it makes you a spoiled brat.

It seems you're just determined to hate Holland, so I don't know why I'm wasting my time, and I hate to derail the thread... You can't really 'plan' to be this good for this long, especially with the veteran-heavy strategy that's been so successful. Low draft picks mean few top prospects. Older players mean fewer trade assets. Plus normal FA attrition. Plus losing Konstantinov and Fischer... It is nothing short of remarkable that we have remained a legit Cup contender every year of Holland's tenure. No other team in the league has even made the playoffs every year. Many haven't been a contender even one year. While of course much of that success is due to Nick, Pav, and Hank, much is also due to Holland carefully planning for both the present and the future at the same time. We are still a good team as we are. Good enough to win a Cup if we get hot at the right time. The Sharks got better on defense, but worse at forward. Vancouver and Chicago both lost a good defenseman without really replacing them. LA looks a lot better but they started behind us and we still have to see how they'll gel. Columbus got better but so what. Nashville is worse on defense and still doesn't have an offense. In the East Washington looks good, but still have that choker label to shed. Boston is about the same, Philly looks worse, TB still has work to do but doesn't look like they'll be any better, and Pittsburgh with a healthy Crosby may be the best team right now, assuming he doesn't disrupt the effort/chemistry they found without him. In short, I don't see any team that we aren't capable of beating. I'd say right now we're just outside the group of top contenders, and a bit ahead of the dark-horse range. In short, we are not in a position that we need to dismantle anything, or make desperate moves now just because it seems like a good idea or because 'well, we need to do something'. My point on Pav and Hank had nothing to do with them leaving as FAs. Pav is 33, we have maybe 3-5 years at most with him as a dominant player. Hank not much, if any, longer. It takes time for prospects to develop. Even if Jurco (who is 18 by the way) joined the team this year, and is a star in the making, he still might not be ready to take over for Pav in 3 years. Pulu and Jarnkrok are still in Europe. It's not a matter of 'picking and choosing' prospects, whatever that is even supposed to mean. It's that we don't have top 5 picks that are NHL ready on draft day. We draft guys that have a lot of upside, but also need a lot of development before they can play at this level. Pav and Hank both spent 3 years in Europe after we drafted them. Mule might have come straight over if not for the lockout, but he was also 24 when we drafted him. Guys make the team when they're ready (Helm and the stacked '09 team notwithstanding). This isn't a game where we can just do anything we want. Other teams aren't going to trade for our s*** just because we offer them a lot of it. And there are very few sure bets that even might be available. Yandle looks great, but he could also stagnate or even regress. Even Doughty isn't a sure thing. Making short-sighted moves now may pay off, or may leave us in the same situation but with fewer options. We have a good team. We have good enough pieces that it won't be the end of the world, even if Nick retires and we don't get an all-star to replace him. We have options at the deadline. We have another summer of free agency. We do not need to make a rash decision. If a good trade is there, great. If not, we need to be patient. Yeah, it sucks that none of the better defensemen made it to free agency. Sucks that the Sharks had the right parts to land Burns. But that does not mean we need to make dumb moves.

I wouldn't go that far. No trade would be better than a bad trade. We have a good number of prospects, but most of the role-player variety, and mostly at forward. We have few roster players with decent trade value, and no real 'extra' players. We also have a relatively short time in which to find replacements for Pav and Hank as well. I think we're out of time to find a replacement in the draft, unless we tank far enough to get in the top 5-10. I think the only hope of keeping the train on the tracks is for a couple of our top prospects to become stars. Tatar, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, maybe Nyquist and Sheahan are guys with a chance. But right now we don't really know if any of those guys will even be the next Filppula. At defense we have Smith, and maybe Marchenko, and then a bunch of guys (mostly undersized offensive guys) who may never even play in the league. Not exactly a plethora of assets, and if we give up too many of the forwards we increase the odds of needing to do the same thing in a few more years for Pav/Hank; possibly with fewer assets to work with. We can either do a real blockbuster and trade Datsyuk or Zetterberg (or both) and a bunch of extras and try to address both forward and defense at once, or sell the farm for Nick's replacement and worry about the forwards when the time comes, or trust our forward prospects and try to replace Nick without using them. The last option seems the best choice to me, but it limits our options. Flip or Mule could be traded, but they'd also need to be replaced with someone good. We've pretty much passed that option this year (at least for Mule), unless we find a desperate team at the deadline. Abby is more expendable, but lower value. Mursak or any of our 3rd/4th line prospects are all expendable. Hudler of course, but he's at a low value point so not a good option right now. Kindl is probably the best option; decent prospect value but replaceable. Smith would be ok, but only if we're getting a sure thing (like Yandle) in return. Picks would have to be the primary piece. I don't have much hope that we can do anything right now. Yandle is probably beyond our range. I think our best hope is the trade deadline, or next summer. I think we're done this summer. Kenny's already said it wasn't what he was hoping for, and if he had it to do over again he would probably give up a pick to talk to Wis or Ehrhoff, but what's done (or in this case: not) is done. Can't win 'em all. Just have to hope next year goes better.

No one is going to replace Nick, unless by some miracle Weber becomes available. Maybe Chara; Doughty if he takes the next step... It will have to be a team effort. I agree we'll likely need a trade, but that trade for Buffy would be awful. Yandle could be a good target. Or a high-potential kid like Bogo or Pietrangelo or Subban. Try to augment that with a FA like Boychuk, Wideman, or if available Burns or Suter.

Neither Doughty nor Yandle would be a UFA even if they did sign a one year deal this year. Next year will probably be a little better than this year, especially if Burns and Suter are available (and Weber of course). But it could also be just as bad or worse. We missed out on all the better defensemen this year, which isn't so terrible this year since Nick came back. But it makes it even more crucial to land someone really good next year if Nick retires, and do so while also re-signing Kronwall and Stuart (or similar replacements). I don't think we can afford to depend on next year's FA class. I think we'll have to make a trade now. Fortunately, we should have the cap space at the deadline for the teams trying to dump salary. Not sure who might be available though. Bouwmeester maybe...