kipwinger

I see that you seem to be all about "young guys, with room to grow, and could help the team for 12+ years" when they aren't currently on the team. But if we're talking about the Wings' young guys, with room to grow, and could help the team for 12+ years you readily insinuate that they're not likely to ever reach that ceiling. You're being awfully selective here. Young guys with potential are GREAT as long as you like them, and if you don't then they're just one step away from being a total bust. I'm not against Jacob Trouba at all. I think he's a decent player. What bothers me is that his myth has grown to such proportions that he's now talked about as if he's some stud defenseman already and not a guy who very well may never turn into what you're pretending he already is. He's infinitely more likely to be another Bouwmeester or Tyler Myers than he is to be another Doughty, Subban, or Josi. If you want to take that risk, fine, but your stated reasons for doing so are completely phony. Edit: As a matter of fact, I remember when Jay Bouwmeester was on the block, and the rumor was that Detroit was offering "prospects" Tatar AND Nyquist for him. A good portion of LGW was all about that because "Tatar and Nyquist weren't guaranteed to be anything at the NHL level". And while neither of them are superstars, I'm still glad we've got their combined 80+ points a season over anything Jay Bouwmeester would have provided to this team.

You and I discussed Orlov, and WE agreed that he's very good. Nobody else had ever mentioned him. I bring him up precisely because he's the anti-Trouba. A guy nobody nobody mentions despite the fact that he outperforms guy Jacob Trouba across the board. Don't get it twisted, this isn't about Trouba being good. There are plenty of defensemen as good or better than Trouba. This is about Trouba being popular, which is a different thing. That's why it's so annoying. People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they "like", and are willing to pay astronomical prices to get him. Look up Orlov's HERO. It's better across the board than Shattenkirk AND Trouba. So why no love for that guy around here? Because a huge portion of LGW doesn't care about getting the best player, they want a team full of guys they like.

What's your point? Kevin Shattenkirk would be Detroit's best defenseman by a long shot too. You're just finding a bunch of post hoc justifications to advocate for someone based solely on the fact that you like them. Nothing more. None of that makes Trouba worth the price you're mentioning. I'm not saying Svech or anybody else is untouchable. I don't think they are. I just think if you're going to move the top prospects in your organization you'd better be getting someone really good. Not someone who you hope might be really good one day.

Kevin Shattenkirk is an "established defenseman". So what? Regardless of how you mince words, you're suggesting Svech is expendible because he's all "potential" and then whitewashing the fact that Trouba hasn't done much of note in his career by saying he's "young" (i.e. he's got "potential"). Or where you suggesting Trouba is an "established" top pair defenseman? Because that's demonstrably false. He's literally never, ever, played regularly on the top pair in his NHL career.

Excelled is a bit strong here. He was better than in previous seasons sure, but that's because up to this point he's been a fairly disappointing for a top ten draft pick. His excellent season you're describing came about because Tyler Myers got hurt, saw Trouba afforded all the ice time and special teams time a guy could ask for, and he scored 33 points. Lol. That's not exactly excellent. He had a worse year in almost every meaningful category than a guy like Dmitry Orlov, yet nobody is out there suggesting we should trade top prospects for Orlov. Why? Because Trouba (for whatever reason) is a darling around here and Orlov is relatively unknown. It's baffling to me the way people describe Trouba despite that fact that in every measurable way he's only pretty good. Not a "top defenseman". Not "excelling". Not anything superlative. Just good. And you don't trade your organization's top prospects for someone who is merely good.

So is Svechnikov, but you seem pretty sure he'll never amount to much. What makes Trouba different?

Neither is Trouba but that doesn't stop people for getting all gushy for him. Jacob Trouba has never, ever, ever, ever, played as a top defenseman in the NHL. So if that's the standard we're holding against Shattenkirk then we'd all better be sure to apply it to whomever else is the pet of the day.

Yup. He's ridiculous. It's insane that in the course of two years the Preds lost Weber AND Jones and their defense is better than it was. Must be nice. Then again, Ryan Ellis is completely underrated and he's on the same team. So maybe it's a trend. Edit: Oh, and Peter Laviolette is probably the league's most underrated coach, so it's probably a trend.

Nope. He's not a center or a defenseman. And he's not noticeably better than any of our current top six wingers, so he's not even really an upgrade at his own position. This would make ZERO sense.

I'm really confused by Randy Carlyle's game plan here. He keeps sending out Kesler to match up against Johansen. But everybody knows that you're supposed to have a dedicated 4th line grinder like Luke Glendening to do that job. I can't imagine what Anaheim's 4th line is doing if not playing against the top opposition line.

Kind of a no brainer for this guy. Detroit didn't make the playoffs, Chicago got roasted by Nashville in the playoffs, and the Predators are looking like a team that's going to be competitive for a few years. No reason for him not to pick Nashville at this point. No big loss, and I'll look forward to seeing how the guy turns out.

I think the trade was terrible, but not because Shea Weber isn't a good defenseman. Usually people tend to view trades in terms of Player X vs. Player Y, and I get that, but that's not the reason why the trade was so lopsided. It was a bad trade because it showed that Marc Bergevin has a spectacularly poor understanding of which direction the game is trending. His team was already slow, and had trouble keeping the puck out of his own zone. Carey Price gets shelled all the time, and it's a testament to him that he's been so successful at keeping the Canadiens competitive. Montreal needed MORE guys like Subban, not less. They traded puck moving ability, which it at a premium because of the affect it has DEFENSIVELY, for a few more points and few more goals from one player over the other. That's why it's a really bad trade. Well that and the fact that Weber is older and has a horrible contract. But those things are sorta secondary IMO.

I mean, it doesn't seem bad at first glance. But then you remember that Xavier Ouellet put up 60 pts in juniors. Sproul put up 66pts. Both seem pretty far ahead of Hague when they were at that level and they don't contribute regularly in the NHL. Granted, nobody is heralding Hague as an offensive guy, I realize that. But chances are his offense will be minimal at higher levels, which makes me very wary of him as a top ten pick (so I agree with you). I'm guessing that if the kid weren't 6'6 he wouldn't even be a first rounder, but as we all know scouts tend to get stupified by the size factor. Hell, Jordan Sambrook put up 40pts this season in the OHL, and Detroit picked him in the 5th round last year.

The more I watch Ryan Ellis dominating in the playoffs for Nashville, the more I really want the Wings to take Cale Makar with the 9th pick. Nothing about his size is a worry for me at this point. I want that dynamism from the defense.

No thanks. Doesn't score much, and some scouting reports say skating is an issue. Big, slow footed defensemen, without much scoring are a thing of the past. I'd take Makar or Liljegren first.

I can't really speak about Petersson, having never seen him play (or even bothered to look into the guy), but in general I'm very wary of anybody with dubious skating. That's not to say his skating (if indeed it is a problem) can't improve. But when I look at the teams doing well in the playoffs right now the thing I notice most is speed. Pittsburgh, Nashville, St. Louis, Edmonton, Ottawa, New York, and even Anaheim are all REALLY fast and play with incredible pace. Going forward, in today's game, I'd be really worried about taking someone who doensn't skate well. This is especially true for defensemen (which I realize Petersson is not). Look at what a game changer Nashville's defense is. They're insane. I just don't think there's any future for slower, grinding, type teams. Even if they're HUGE, I think you live and die in transition these days.

I don't really think that's the case though. Grand Rapids isn't teeming with quality NHL-level center prospects. Only Holmstrom has a realistic chance of ever playing in the NHL regularly. Guys like Lorito and Street aren't in anybody's plans for the future, so I'd expect that if Ejdsell chose Detroit he'd go right to Grand Rapids. What he does there is anybody's guess, but I think that given our lack of quality center prospects (or centers at the NHL level) that his path to the big club is not noticeably different with Detroit than it would be with most other teams.

@Buppy, good luck sorting this out lol.

Yeah, I completely agree that is the more likely scenario. But I can't help but think about the Bertuzzi and Givani Smith picks here. In both those cases the Wings brass saw something they really liked in those kids games and were willing to take them earlier than expected. I'm not saying they do, but say they really like something about Cody Glass (for example), I can see them attempting to move up knowing that other teams may be more willing to move back a few spots given how bunched together the prospects are.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we move up in this draft (provided there's a player we really like in the 4-7 range). Given how bunched together the prospects are after Patrick and Hischier, I think GM's might be more willing to fall back a few picks for an extra pick later. And we've got a bunch of those. Either way, we're still going to get a pretty good player at 9th. Excluding European players you've still got... 1. Patrick 2. Hischier 3. Vilardi 4. Mittelstadt 5. Rasmussen 6. Glass 7. Tippet 8. Tolvanen 9. Makar 10. Suzuki Add Liljegren and Heiskanen (two of the better defensemen in the class) and anybody 4-8 above could fall to us. I'm fairly interested to see how the plays out.

Saw that coming.

I'm just going to leave this here... http://www.stream2watch.cc/live-television/united-states/nbc-live-stream

Lefty, you're being disingenuous here. People give you s*** because you said this over and over again about Franzen, to whom it never, ever, applied. He scored 59 pts. in his contract year, and then scored just as well or better over the next 5 years after the contract was signed. You incessantly harped on his "signing a big contract and then never playing up to it" while his points per game remained the same. The only thing that changed was the amount of time he missed due to injury. You're acting like you made a blanket statement and are now pretending to be vindicated. In reality, you said it repeatedly about one very specific case, and people gave you s*** because you were demonstrably wrong about it.

Dude, that statement is WAY truer than you think it is. It happens to me ALL THE TIME.

I do think that teams often promote home town heros to positions they haven't earned (yet), because they like the guys, want to take care of them, or think it will be popular. There's a reason why Sakic runs the Avs, Hull ran the Stars, Stevens was in charge in New Jersey, Lowe and McTavish in Edmonton, and so on. It does happen. But I don't think that means that other guys from outside the old boy network aren't getting chances either. Kyle Dubas, Ryan Martin, the aforementioned Chayka, are all on the rise right now in their respective organizations. I'm sure there are more if I dug in a little bit because analytics is on the rise and is ushering these guys into organizations. BUT, while these guys didn't play NHL hockey, they aren't exactly "average joes" either. They've all got years and years of training in things like statistical analysis, econometrics, organizational theory, etc. A regular fan lacks the experiential knowledge of the player, and has nothing close to the specialized knowledge these guys have. So it's unclear what equities they'd bring to bear on scouting (for example) beyond "well I watch a lot of hockey", which is true of all these guys too.