kipwinger

Soooo...Evander Kane anyone lol?

What are the parameters here? No Ott and Miller. That's easy. Tatar-Larkin-Abby Z-Neilsen-Vanek Nyquist-AA-Mantha Glendening-Helm-Sheahan Frk Jurco Dekeyser-Green Smith-Markenko Kronwall-Sproul Ericsson With this lineup we'd only have scrubs like Helm, Glendening, Abby, Sheahan, and Neilsen to kill penalties instead of Miller and Ott so we might be in real trouble lol.

Well you did read it wrong, but you're right that it is badly annotated. Glendening and Tatar and everybody else's icetime is being compared to NHL line averages to determine whether their TOI is similar to the average 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th liner. The 300+ and 500+ designations are only indicating that for the one graph they were showing all forwards who played 300+ minutes at 5 on 5, while the other shows all forward who played 500+ minutes in all situations. In this particular graph they adjust for zone starts as well (labeled there as "sheltered" vs "buried") to further contextualize the data. So for example, the graph shows that Luke Glendening gets more minutes than the average fourth liner, but many of those minutes are in the defensive zone. In any case his production (measured by shot generation for Detroit) is pretty bad. Conversely, Tatar gets sheltered third line minutes, but has the best shot generation on the team because of it. Tatar's numbers are impressive because while his icetime indicates that he's roughly in line with a third line player, he's generating more shots than our first and second line guys. His production per TOI is the best on the team. Glendening's is the opposite. He gets the ice time of a 3-4th line tweener, but he struggles.

More evidence that Tomas Tatar should NOT be traded. Dude's a stud.

D Datsyuk will get in because he's flashy. And people go ga ga for flashy players.

Yep, you're right. I read that wrong. I got that wrong in another thread as well. Well I stand corrected.

I don't know about that. He scored 90+ points twice. Exactly what Datsyuk did. Neither ever topped 100 pts. in a season. He won a Conn Smythe AND a Selke, so it's not like he was a non playoff performer or a one dimensional scorer. Datyuk was definitely flashier, but in terms of his on ice contributions I'm not sure he ever did anything substantially greater than Richards did.

Just to play devil's advocate, didn't you just say in another thread that Helm isn't the best 3rd line center in the league just because Babcock said so? Why are announcers' opinions of Datsyuk any different than Babcock's opinion of Helm?

You're splitting hairs. 1 Selke vs. 3. They were both great defenders during their hey day. You don't win even one Selke if you're not an elite defender.

If Datsyuk gets in so should Richards. Personally I'd say neither are HHOF worthy.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding Jurco, I think you have to be careful with this argument. The counterfactual makes the argument less plausible. People only ever insinuate "stats don't matter that much" when they're talking about guys who aren't producing. I've never, ever, seen someone argue that stats don't matter that much when I guy is scoring a ton (which is after all the point of the game). Except maybe when it came to Franzen lol. If stats aren't the only, or even the predominant, way of evaluating a player's worth, then that argument would be just as true for players who produce a lot as those those who don't produce much at all. But nobody ever argues it that way. I think the jury is still out on Jurco. I think he has all the tools to be a good player. But it's very possible that his first 30 odd games were the exception and not the rule. Truth is, we don't know what kind of a player he is at this point.

You're right, I was wrong. I was reading about it last night and got it all wrong. Obviously it makes a lot more sense as you've laid it out.

Push comes to shove they can always waive Howard and Ericsson at some point. They'd retain about 900,000K on both contracts but the other 7 million (ish) would be freed up. AND they'd have to pay their full salaries to play in the AHL. So I'm sure the Ilitches wouldn't be too thrilled, but the money would be there.

That's actually not too far from what I'd envisioned. With no additional roster changes I'd like to see this: Tatar-Larkin-Abby Nyq-Neilsen-Vanek Z-AA-Mantha Sheahan-Glendening-Helm Frk Jurco On defense I'd like: Dekeyser-Green Smith-Marchenko Kronwall-Ericsson (I don't want Ericsson, but lets me real) Sproul That's with no changes. But sooner or later the Wings are going to have to move some cheap younguns' into the lineup and ditch some overpriced vets. They need to re-sign Dekeyser and Mraz this year and Tatar, AA, and Smith next year. And they won't have a lot of money to do it with. They probably should have done that this year by ditching Helm and Glendening for cheaper options but what's done is done. Losing Ott, Miller, Ericsson, and Howard next season should just about cover it.

Best Red Wing, or best player who ever played for the Wings? Because any or all of Fetisov, Larionov, Hull, Robitaille, and Chelios are among the best players ever at their positions. Just maybe not when they played for the Wings.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I dont think two guys signed to one year contracts for less than a million are necessarily going to be penciled into the lineup. Obviously Helms going to play (and he should), but not the other two. I dont think they're safe. Especially Ott. Holland waived Tootoo, why would he be reluctant to waive Ott?

At this point I hope we don't trade for a defenseman. Go with this. Its not terrible. Tatar-Larkin-Abby Nyquist-Neilsen-Vanek Z-AA-Mantha Helm-Glen-Sheahan Jurco Frk Dekeyser-Green Smith-Marchenko Kronwall-Sproul Ericsson Ltir Franzen, pulk, vitale. Waive Ott and Miller. Trade Ouellet.

Yikes. Six years?

Subban is significantly better than Weber. Bergevin is dumb.

Neilsens most common winger last year was okposo. We can easily get both AND still have money for more. If Holland lands those two, plus trades for a defenseman you've got to consider that an off season win. This Stamkos thing is a blessing in disguise. Watch.

Can't post a link, on a s***ty phone. I did see RNH for Severson +, but I didn't see that it was limited to a center. I read they wanted offense.

Devils looking for some scoring and put defenseman Damon Severson in play. Jump all over this Kenny!

Four 1st round picks! Who do they think they're getting? Erik Karlsson?

Bruins to offer sheet Trouba? Apparently so. Geesh, what a terrible idea. It'll cost them between 7-8 million dollars a year and 4 first round draft picks. For a guy who's all potential at this point. Yikes. http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/Source-Boston-Bruins-preparing-offer-sheet-for-Winnipeg-Jets-D-man-Jacob-Trouba

Speed kinda is everything though. What's the difference between Matt Cullen, Luke Glendening, Darren Helm, and Matt Martin? None of them have good hands. None are noticeably smarter hockey players. But the first three, because they're fast, get more scoring chances (and as a result capitalize more often). And they can kill penalties...because they can skate. Martin can't. And so he doesn't. I don't have a problem with physicality. But if that's all you're getting then you're not really helping yourself. My ideal fourth line for the Wings is Glendening-Helm-Bertuzzi/Callahan. None hit like Martin. All are WAY better players though. It's not splitting hairs. Hitting doesn't win games. Offensive and defense do. Neither Miller nor Martin are great offensively. But only one of them is good defensively. It ain't Martin.