kipwinger

Nah dude, he sucks. Cut him. Make him trade bait. Cut bait and trade him. etc. Why? Because one time, there was this guy named Ville Leino. And get this, Ville Leino was lazy, arrogant, and entitled. So therefore, he sucked. And Jurco wasn't really very good this year either. So chances are, he's probably like Ville Leino. Because both of them weren't very good, for totally different reasons. Make sense now?

Or before he turns into the next Justin Abdelkader?

So you're saying that in the event that two guys have the same number of Cups, nothing else matters as a tiebreaker? So John Tortarella and Mike Babcock are equally good coaches then? Lol.

I know, but not nearly as much of anything else. So it's hardly a tie. But I'll readily admit (and have) that Sutter is the second best coach in the NHL.

Except that five or six coaches with comparably talented rosters haven't done just as well. Babs had comparably talented rosters. So did McClellan. And Vigneault. And Hitchcock. And Sutter. And Bylsma. He's had good rosters but its not like he was coaching the 2002 Wings. He's won quite a lot more with a comparably talented roster than any number of other coaches.

Bummer. I hope Larkin likes watching "60 Minutes".

Good point, weren't they competing with the dynasty Wings and Avs? I just checked, in his 8 season with St. Louis he lost to the eventual Cup winner 5 times. 3 to Bowman's Wings, once to the Stars, and once to the Avs.

That's bogus. You're measuring his worth entirely by offensive output, which I agree he didn't produce. But that belies the fact that he's very good defensively, he hits, he's fast and hard to knock off the puck, he wins board battles. He was a very quality possession player given his role. His possession metrics were noticeably better than our other 3rd and 4th liners. He wasn't completely worthless. He did a lot for the team. He just didn't score. In that way he's very similar to Abby and Helm in their first few years. Measuring a guy's value based solely on their point totals (particularly in a non-scoring role) is only an indication that your "analysis" is incredibly unsophisticated. Not that the player is "completely worthless".

Because people have short memories, and they completely forgot exactly how long it took Helm and Abby to find their offensive games in the NHL. They also forgot that Jurco is much more skilled than either of those two, and while it will still be hard for him to learn a power foward's game, it will probably be a shorter adjustment period than either of the two aforementioned players. Prediction, by the time he's Abby's age he will have 2-3 50 point seasons under his belt, but none of them will probably come next season. Mark it.

I read an article on him recently, written by an analytics guy, who argued that he was pretty overrated and that his production was unsustainable. I'll see if I can find it. Edit: Nevermind, it wasn't an analytics guy per se. It was Ryan Lambert. Still, the point is relevant. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/the-matt-beleskey-question--trending-topics-195741162.html

I agree. He's won a lot more with a better team in Chicago. That's sort of a truism though. You'd expect a good coach to win more with better players. What's interesting is that he put up pretty solid numbers, and consistently made the playoffs, with marginal teams in St. Louis and Colorado. That's not too much different than Babs (for instance). He's done pretty good with marginal teams, and when he coached better teams he's achieved more. The only difference is that Quenneville has won more (with a very good team) than Babcock, or Hitchcock, or Sutter, did when they had very good teams. He's had one of the best rosters in the league for the last 5-7 years, and in that time he's gone to the conference finals 5 times, the Cup finals 3 times, and won the Cup twice (and maybe a third soon). Comparably, Babcock had one of the best rosters in the league for 5-7 years from 2005-2012 and went to the conference finals 3 times, the Cup finals twice, and won 1 Cup. Trying to diminish Quenneville's accomplishments is starting to get asinine. He's (by a mile) the most accomplished coach in the league. Nobody else is even close. To attribute all that to the quality of his roster implies that A) nobody else had equally good rosters (which is bull), or B) that everybody with equally good rosters would have won as much (also bull). He's really good.

He certainly had a knack for picking successful teams. Didn't they used to say the same thing about Bowman? His success spoke as much about his ability to pick good teams as it did about his ability to coach...or something to that affect?

Here's a pretty awesome article about the Hawks, Lightening, AND Wings. It's largely about how skill, speed, and puck possession have similarly contributed to all three organizations' success. But also talks a little about dynasties. As well. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/mirtle-a-stanley-cup-final-of-dynasties-past-present-and-maybe-future/article24715839/

It seems pretty likely, given that logjam, that Weiss will get traded or bought out no? I'd say they should look to trade Pulkkinen, but I suspect they'll give Blashill the opportunity to use him first.

I think Holland's trade deadline acquisitions are indicative of the types of moves he'd like to make in the offseason. I mean, Cole and Zidlicky perhaps didn't have the desired effect, but they were the right moves. I think Holland looks to add a big winger, and a right shooting puck mover. Another guy like Cole in the top six, and Franzen can go down to the third. That's my guess.

I wouldn't call Quenneville a "genius". I would, however, argue that he wins more with what he has. Sure, he has a really good team. Lots of other coaches have had really good teams too. But he wins more than they do. That's why he's the best coach in hockey. Edit: Per this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/mirtle-a-stanley-cup-final-of-dynasties-past-present-and-maybe-future/article24715839/ "Five final fours in the past seven years and the possibility of three Cups in six years – if they can beat a solid challenger in the Tampa Bay Lightning – is an almost unmatched body of work in the past 25 years. In the past seven, Chicago has more points during the regular season (700) and more wins in the postseason (69) than any other franchise. In the case of the playoffs, it’s not really close. (Only Boston is within 20.)"

Here's a thought. With the emergence of Abby, Tatar, and Nyquist as regular scoring threats. And with any potential FA acquisitions that Holland picks up, maybe Franzen gets pushed down the depth chart a bit. Or, at the very least, he gets to take advantage of easier matchups/usage. And in doing so, he isn't asked to shoulder as much of the offensive load as in years past. As a secondary scorer I think he'd be incredibly valuable. He'd (theoretically) carve up third line competition.

I don't think Tampa looked "uninspired" against us. That makes it seem like the series was only close because they were slacking off or something. The Red Wings are a tough out. Just like New Jersey used to be. We trap and trap and trap some more. It's not easy to score goals on a team like that. And Tampa needs to score lots of goals to win hockey games. But the writing was on the wall for most of the series. They owned the puck against us, just like they haven't against everyone else up to this point. No matter how much you trap, it's tough to beat a team when they always have the puck and you never do.

I didn't even know what disingenuous meant. I had to google it.

There really isn't any reason to take this discussion too far afield. Anybody who's been around LGW for a while knows the kinds of reactions that Franzen has received around here. And the criticisms have definitely gone pretty far beyond observations of his play. If people genuinely feel bad for him, that's fine. Who am I to say how you should feel about the guy? I was just making an observation that there were an awful lot of people who had nothing good to say about him and wanted him gone at any cost. Many went so far as to feminize his name (because chicks are lame bro! durrrrrr). And some of those same people now act like they really give a crap about the guy...so long as he still leaves, of course. I wish the guy all the good health in the world. And if he wants to continue playing hockey, or trying to play hockey, who the hell am I to wish otherwise? He and his doctors certainly know better than I do whether he's subjecting himself to anything unwise. And he and his family are far more capable of weighing the risks and rewards of playing than any of us.

It’s expected that Dan Cleary will retire and get a front-office job with the Red Wings after being a “rotating in” player in practice line rushes last year. He’s in same boat as former teammate Kirk Maltby, who thought he might get an offer from somebody else but didn’t and retired, and now is a pro scout in Detroit. http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/edmonton-oilers/Hockey+World+Short+shifts+There+should/11090992/story.html

I completely understand the context. But I'd prefer the Wings be better. Not the Hawks be worse. Everybody always says that Chicago fans are classless because they chant "Detroit sucks!" instead of "Go Hawks Go!" or whatever. But this is the same thing. It's just validation by negation. It's false logic to determine your worth based on someone else's uselessness. It's the same as thinking you're right because someone else is wrong. It's faulty logic. Maybe the other person is just MORE wrong than you are. If we want to be considered the greatest modern dynasty we should be better. No hope that Chicago is worse. What am I talking about? f*** Chicago.

I think you missed some pretty relevant contextual information. I'm talking about the fans, on this site, saying those things about him. Not other players, on the ice. I think it's trashy for fans to attack the guy personally, and then pretend to have sincere concern for his person later on. Regardless of his work ethic. I don't care what other players say to him on the ice.

I'm rooting for Chicago. They're more fun to watch, and I hate the idea of the Stanley Cup going back to California. Seriously, think about that for a second. It's not too dissimilar from the penguins at the San Diego zoo. Just leave them where they belong.

So because he doesn't play up to his potential we should all expect, and participate, in the pejorative speculation about his sexuality, mental health issues, and criminality? He's been accused of everything from being a homosexual to intentionally defrauding the Wings by faking the severity of his injury. It's over the top. And the fact that he's "polarizing" is no excuse. Wings fans LOVE to go on and on about how classy they are. And how loutish and ignorant other teams' fans are. But in the case of Johan Franzen, quite a lot of Wings fans have been completely and totally trashy.