kipwinger

As stated above, Holland has been saying all year that this team is a work in progress and that it might not even make the playoffs. Not once has he said "we like our team". Your criticism is noted yet completely erroneous and misguided. If you want to criticize Holland focus on things like how he lacked a long term vision for how we'd transition into the post Lidstrom era, or how he consistently lowballs helpful free agents because he's cheap and afraid of the cap. It's pointless to keep parroting something he said years ago when we were frequently competing for cups.

I disagree that we don't have anything to trade, we've got a lot to trade in terms of picks and prospects, and considering the cap is going down next year picks and prospects (that have shown something) are more valuable than ever. Take a team like New Jersey for example, they have to resign Elias, Zidlicky, Clarkson, Henrique, Ponikarovsky, Liktionov, and they're going to have less cap space to do it. Surely, they'd consider moving Volchenkov and his 4.5 million dollar cap hit in order to facilitate that. Especially considering they've already got a glut of NHL ready defensemen. Tatar and a 3rd would come close to getting it done. They'd get a pick and a cheap winger who can contribute immediately, we'd get a top four defenseman to play with Kronwall, and we'd lose a good prospect but not one who's integral to the future of this team. Then we move White or whoever to replace the pick we lost.

So you think the top six and be stabilized by players already on the roster, but who are either injured (Flip) or could be freed up to play in the top six once an injured player returns (Tatar)? That sounds almost exactly like what Holland was saying to Pierre LeBrun in the conversation linked above. For the record, I agree with you about Abby and Cleary, and I do believe Holland should make a move (see my post to Leftwinger above) to solidify the top six. But barring that, I still think that the return of Bert and Sammy makes us a better team than we are right now. Even if you have to put Bert and Sammy on the third line after you promote Tatar and Andersson goes back to GR.

We have plenty enough assets to get what we need, IMO. Which is, a big minute stay at home d-man to play with Kronwall on the top pair, and a big(ish) winger who can chip in supplemental scoring. For the sake of argument I'll say Blake Wheeler and Ladislav Smid. You could also swap these guys for Nino Niederreiter, Troy Brouwer, Sam Gagne on offense, and Mark Stuart, Henrik Tallinder, Robyn Regehr, or Anton Volchenkov on defense. And best of all, pretty much any of these guys could be had for a combination of prospects, picks, and lower level roster players. Then you simply move our throw away guys like White, Colaiacovo, Sammy, Eaves, Kindl, Miller, Abby, Cleary, etc. for the picks you lose landing the impact players. Wheeler-Datsyuk-Flip Brunner-Z-Franzen Kronwall-Smid Smith-Ericsson To me this looks a hell of a lot better than what we're fielding right now. Fill in the bottom six/bottom defensive pairings however you want. If you honestly think we're a better team with Cleary and Abby in the top six rather than Sammy and Bert then I'm not going to argue with you. I still maintain that while Holland should make a move or two, the addition of those guys makes our team considerably more competitive than it is now. And given that the point of trading is to make your team better than it is now, there's nothing misleading about Holland's comments.

Why do you always think that we need star players? When you have star centers you don't also need star wingers, you need quality wingers who can support Datsyuk and Zetterberg and provide supplemental scoring. James Neal and Alex Burrows aren't star wingers in their own right, they're quality wingers who have big success because they play with elite centers. That's what we need here. The equal but opposite is also true, if you've already got star wingers, then you can use quality centers to support them. In the salary cap world it's nearly impossible to have both of any length of time. Teams that have both, like Chicago, are an anomaly.

His level of play suggests otherwise.

He hasn't said the first one in years. All season long he's called our current team a work in progress and even hinted at missing the playoffs, so I doubt he "likes his team". Getting Helm, Bertuzzi, and Sammuelsson back IS like a deadline acquisition. And many of our prospects ARE over ripe in the minors, hence they're (Tatar, Mrazek, Lashoff, and Andersson) having a real positive impact while being injury call ups. Whether Holland makes a move or not (I hope he does), you're being wildly reactionary with this statement, presumably because you're frustrated at the lack of success this team is encountering. I share that frustration and think there are many things to criticize Holland about, but these statements aren't really very legitimate criticisms.

I really like that line as well, they seem to work really well together and bring the kind of tenacity that is often lacking on this team (especially with Helm out of the lineup). As a matter of fact, I'd love to see our top six forwards attacking more aggressively the way that the line up mentioned does. Seems like all of them, including Dats, Z, and Brunner are always looking for the open ice rather than attacking and forcing the defense to make plays. Filppula is especially bad about circling back rather than attacking the net when on a rush. Ugh.

That's definitely true if you believe he was indeed "standing on the ice when three of his teammates scored". If he factored in to the play from the back end, perhaps by making a good outlet pass, keeping a puck in the offensive zone that otherwise would have been cleared, standing a guy up and causing a turnover, etc. then he may not end up on the score sheet, but was doing something far from standing around, that facilitated the eventual goal. I don't know whether he did or didn't in the games you mentioned, I'd have to go back and look. But considering Detroit's system has for years generated offense from the back end, via the transition game, I'd expect to find that he did factor into the play in a positive way.

Anybody know anything about Nino Niederreiter from the Isles? Scouting reports on him seem positive, but I haven't seen him play. Edit: Plus, Garth Snow is an idiot so fleecing him shouldn't be that hard right?

Don't you think that the top six you've just laid out would have problems playing in high traffic? Seems like they'd just be pushed to the outside the way Nashville did to us last year. I think you need power forwards to counteract that problem.

When it comes to plus minus I always see the argument that bad players can have good plus/minus because they indirectly benefit from being on the ice when guys like Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, etc. score. It's always used to denigrate the play of guys that aren't considered stars. But I never see the argument that good players will have bad plus/minus because of screwups by bad players. And considering blown coverages, turnovers, bad line changes, etc. happen far more frequently than goals, you'd expect that the effect of bad play would skew that stat downward for star players far more than it would inflate the number for bad players right?

Anybody else think that maybe the reason we're seeing these half assed line combos out of Babs is because of some sort of dissatisfaction with Holland and the personnel he's brought on board the last couple of seasons? A la Billy Bean or something. Babcock's been calling for top six forward and top pair d-man help, and I guarantee he wasn't thinking Mikael Samuelsson and Carlo Colaiacovo when he said that. Perhaps this is his way of showing that he's not really been dealt the hand he wanted. Also, on an unrelated note: Kudos to the defense for once again playing a pretty good game. I like the way these guys are shaping up.

Makes me wonder if there's more the the story than we're privy to. Last year Babs has a love affair with Ian White. This year Babs won't keep the same defensive pairings for 3 shifts, let alone three games. Then, White of all people is the odd man out when Babs finally does decided on a group to stick with. And White is obviously pissed off about it. I wonder if there wasn't a locker room conflict or something. This seems too sudden and acrimonious to be a case where White was simply played out of his roster spot by Lashoff and Kindl.

To be fair, in his presser after the San Jose game Babcock singled out Kindl yet again for his play and did so without any reservations. Two games in a row he was mentioned by name for his strong play.

Tatar definitely plays a more north/south hustle, go to the hard areas, etc. sort of game. Nyquist clearly has the more dazzling skill set, but I think as wings fans we've watched Pavel so long that we tend to want to see that razzle dazzle all the time, and we think it translates easily to the NHL game. It really doesn't. In almost every other instance the best offensive players in the league are the guys that play a simpler, more aggressive, direct sort of game.

That's reasonable. I certainly don't want to make it seem like I don't think Nyquist is a talented player with a decent future. But if Tatar hasn't earned his way onto the top six with his play, I don't see how other people's call for bringing in Nyquist for that role are justified.

I've amended my previous post as you're correct on the ice time. However, if you think that he didn't play on the top lines at all you're diluting yourself. He did. And he certainly did more than Tatar has to this point.

Ok, he played with Miller and Abby more than Datyuk. However he still played with Dats, Z, and Franzen. Tatar doesn't play with Zetterberg, Franzen, or Datsyuk AT ALL and is producing at a better rate. Gustav didn't, regardless of who his linemates were.

I'll agree that his contract isn't that great, but he's not "wildly inconsistent". He's only ever missed 40 pts. twice in his career and has topped 50 in half of his seasons played. Also, you might want to check their stat lines considering they've got almost identical production over their careers. If Cole is inconsistent then Ryder is too. They both have identical .63 points per game totals, both have two 60+ point seasons, each have three 50+ point seasons, Cole has one more 40 point season, Ryder has one more 30 goals season but Cole has one more 20+ goal season, and they've got got respectable plus/minus. The only thing differentiating them is that Cole has more goals and assists (19 goals and 28 more assists) but he's played one more season so it stands to reason. Dallas may have got fleeced because they took on salary and lost a pick, but they didn't get fleeced because Cole is "inconsistent".

A significant portion of his games last year where on a line with Datsyuk when either Franzen or Bert were out of the lineup.

Dude, I just commented in another thread that Cole was my sleeper pick for the Wings. He's definitely a guy I would have loved to see in the Winged Wheel. Well both he and Ryder actually. That bums me out pretty bad.

Holland might well be doing stuff like this in the near future, but I'm pretty glad he didn't this time. Gagne has lost his legs and his game if a shadow of it's former self.

Just saw a comment from him over at HFboards yesterday and had a good belly laugh reading everyone else commenting on his irrational love of Hudler over there as well. Some things clearly never change.

Why? Because Tatar has more goals than Cleary while playing higher quality competition and Nyquist is the big bodied power guy that the line needs to dig the puck out of the corners, crash the net, and screen goalies?