kipwinger

The point I was trying to make with regards to Rafalski was that if he was making 6 million to put up 40-50 points in his old age, then I'd be willing to give Erhoff 4 million to put up 30-40 in his old age. That's all, I wasn't bashing Rafalski. I'm also not too wrapped up in plus minus either, but when a guy's only negative years come with the Islanders and Columbus I think there's something to take from it. All I'm getting at is that if you take Kronwall, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey and add to that any of the people I mentioned above, and our defense is in MUCH better shape. And acquiring any of those guys wouldn't have been too expensive or unreasonable.

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

Well with Erhoff I doubt very seriously he plays until 40, so basically you've got a guy who will put up 30+ points a year, and runs the hell out of a powerplay, for 4 million dollars until the end of his career. I do understand being wary of that term though, and you're right, it's a gamble, but if Brian Rafalski can put up quality numbers despite having s***ty knees, at 36-37 years old, so can Erhoff...and Erhoff would be cheaper. Wiz is as good defensively as Kronwall, hits, fights, is 20 lbs. heavier, and scores as much or more, and god knows he'd help our powerplay Plus, unlike Erhoff, he won't be all that old when his contract is up...33 I think. In all honesty I don't really understand why people thought this one was so bad. His bad defensive years were with Columbus -13, and the Islanders -18. When he was traded from the Island to Montreal he was a plus four for the remainder of the season. Excluding the two years playing on two of the worst teams imaginable, the Wiz is a career plus defenseman. He does take bad penalties now and again, but usually it's because he's overly aggressive, something I wouldn't really mind on our team. Those are my defenses of those two guys, you're welcome to disagree, as neither of them are elite players and I'm aware of it. Obviously my list included more than just those two as well, but the point I was always trying to make is that there have been plenty of good defensemen available over the last three years. We either didn't want them, or didn't think we needed them. In lieu of our current defensive situation I'd say that those were both poor decisions. Finally, hindsight is 20/20, I get that. But isn't it part of a general manager's job to anticipate the future (as best as possible)? Holland constantly talks about the future. So it's hard for me to say that he shouldn't have been better prepared, preparation falls pretty much exclusively on his shoulders. He's still a great GM, but I agree with Esteef, he could have handled this better.

I completely agree, I watched the same off season as everybody else did. And certainly (as I said before) nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Staurt in the same year. So I'm not here to condemn Holland or anyone else. I like Kronwall, I like White, and Ericsson, and Smith, and even Kindl...but I don't think it's reasonable to say that there were absolutely no moves (over the last three years) that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Finally, to give credit where it's due. I did like the White signing, it clearly worked out, and I did like the Quincey trade, which will. I don't think Holland did nothing, but in order to play devil's advocate I think it's only honest to side with Esteef in saying that in some cases better options were available. Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.

Actually I don't think Doughty is that good, and certainly never did a thing to deserve that 7 million dollar contract (which was given to him before the cup season). As it is, we've got one of the smallest team defenses, and almost all of them are considered puck movers and not top notch defensively. AND there's only five of them!

I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.

Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else). (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed. I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus. That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit. Every team has potential anymore. I honestly believe the reason none of the above mentioned were signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year. I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.

Are we talking about the same two people? Because if we are then it should probably be pointed out that Kostitsyn's career high in points is lower than Semin's career average. Kind of a no brainer.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the only reason anyone thinks Semin is lazy is because other people say Semin is lazy. How often does he need to score in order to be considered consistent and not lazy? Should he score as often as Zach Parise? Oh wait, he already does. Should his plus/minus be better than Parise's? Wait, it already is. Maybe if he shot more or passed as much? Wait, he does that too...and at a higher percentage. About the only areas in which he and Parise don't match up are number of games played, and ice time. Factor those in and Semin has done as well or better than Zach Parise in every major category with MUCH less time on ice. His numbers also compare very favorably to Rick Nash and Bobby Ryan as well, and most of us (myself included) would be thrilled to have those guys. There are a lot of negative things you can say about Semin, but lazy and inconsistent shouldn't be among them.

Unless we're dressing 15 or 16 forwards a night, we have more cap space than the 17 million we're talking about here. So it's pretty hard to say that we're not signing people because we want to save money for next year. Even with a signing (or two) we've still got a TON of money. Also: Every year we don't make a change and desperately hope that one of Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, or whomever is the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg is another year older for a core of guys who (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) couldn't get the job done. It's really hard for me to believe that the same core that couldn't get the job done for the last three years (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) is going to be able to do it now. Unless Sammy, Tootoo, and Gustavsson were the missing ingredients...ugh. And even if Nyquist, Brunner, Jarnkrok, or Jurco come around and turn into high level guys, how far off is that, two years? Three? At which time Datsyuk will be Bertuzzi's age, Zetterberg and Kronwall will be Samuelsson's age, and Flip will be 30-31. Who's the core then?

Up on the top right, next to the sign out button, click the drop down box next to your screen name and there's an option that says "Manage Ignore Prefs". Then you just type in the screen name of the person you're trying to ignore and click the individual boxes for which content you want to block (e.g. posts, sig line, chat, messenger).

yeah for sure, the young guys are going to be a big factor this year and it's the first time in a long time that I'm excited about the young talent (unlike last year's Emmerton and Mursak infusion). I'm REALLY excited to see what this Brunner kid can do. If he turns out to be something quality, then that makes him or Nyquist expendable, in which case a high profile trade is entirely possible. As for the top six, as it is it's nothing special and very very shallow. If Holland doesn't acquire anyone prior to the season opener then I feel like it's almost an admission that we're taking a year to rebuild, given how hard it is to make up points after the trade deadline in today's game.

I definitely think he's waiting on Doan as well, but that worries me because so are a lot of other teams. Once Doan decides what he's doing all those teams that missed out are going to start bidding up Semin, and once he gets bid up, Holland will likely walk on the deal. That's the mind boggling thing about this entire free agency period, Holland keeps waiting on these guys...doesn't get them, and then doesn't want to pay the price for the plan B options once he's missed his first choice. Or at least it appears that way to me.

Yeah I agree. No matter what, signing Semin is going to come with a question mark or two. It's obviously going to be a gamble, but as you said before, it certainly seems like the kind of gamble that Holland would typically be willing to make. Then again, many of the things KH has done this off season haven't really seemed very Holland-like to me, so as I've previously mentioned...I have no idea what to expect from him.

My two cents: The ignore function is incredible. I just discovered where it was and already the quality of my LGW experience has improved immensely. From now on that's my first stop when repeatedly irritated by someone's posts, unless it's someone's quirks I've come to accept (looking at you Leftwinger), in which case I'll continue to jocularly rib with shear delight.

That is a serious concern, but I can't help but think that if he wanted to bolt to the KHL, he'd be there already. I mean, it's no secret that he's not going to get paid as much here as he would there, so what's stopping him you know?

Well I never said that Nash and Semin aren't difference makers, anybody that talented and with a history of high level offensive production is a difference maker. I was just responding to the guy who said Doan didn't have any gas left in the tank. At this point I'd be thrilled with any of the three, but I think that Semin will be the easiest (and surest) move given that I don't want to pin my hopes on Doan leaving the only team he's ever known, or on trades that are likely to be matched by other teams. In the end I just want us to acquire at least one top line forward in free agency, because I've thought we lacked top six depth for the last three years. Then if you swap top six guys in a trade (e.g. Nash for Franzen (plus package) you're still up one with the FA signing.

Doan is younger than Drake was when he came back in 2008 and laid himself on the line for a cup. Plus, Doan is a much bigger, grittier, and more skilled player than Drake ever was. Doan had 5 goals and 4 assists during this year's playoffs. That's a quarter of his regular season production in the playoffs. Not too shabby for a guy with no gas in the tank. Wherever he lands, Shane Doan will kill or be killed for a Stanley Cup.

You say Holland "inherited" the team as if that was a well established fact. Let's look at what Ken Holland inherited in 2008 shall we? Ken Holland drafted the lion's share of the talent on the 2008 team. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, Quincey, Ericsson, Abdelkader, and Kronwall were all Hollands picks. Samuelsson, Cleary, Stuart, Lilja, and Rafalski were all Ken Holland signings. Additionally, Osgood, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Drake, and McCarty were drafted before Bowman came to the team, and in the case of Drake and McCarty, re-signed under Holland. The only notable people on the 2008 team that came from Scotty's tenure were Chelios, Hasek, Draper, and Maltby. That's right, the core components that Holland "inherited" were a backup goalie (in the playoffs), a sixth defenseman, and two fourth line grinders. No need for personal attacks when the facts fly so contrary to every statement you make

But I think the interesting thing is that he makes the players he's with better as well. According to the article most players were better off, offensively and defensively, when playing on a line with him so it's reasonable to expect he'd increase D,Z, Franzen, or Flip's production as well.

Like I edited above, I'm not saying they don't have a plan, or that we're totally screwed. I just don't understand what the plan is, or what their vision of the future is. Unless they decided that the only major moves worth making were for Parise and Suter, and if they couldn't land them then the next best option was to plug some holes and sit on the money until some future date.

So much of what's going on doesn't make sense to me. Like singing Tootoo, or signing Sammy when either Nyquist or Brunner was supposed to play in the top six this year, or giving Sammy a NTC, or not having much of a backup plan if we didn't land Suter, or not signing Quincey when it became apparent that we couldn't get Suter (Wideman, Garrison, or Carle) and we only have 5 defensemen under contract, or not signing a top six forward (the same problem we've had for the last three years), or staking our remaining offensive hopes on a guy (Doan) who's most likely to remain with his current (and only team), or not signing Semin now that he's really the only guaranteed top six that we could sign without having to give up assets for, or finally staking next season on trades which are more likely to not happen than pan out in our favor. Really the only thing that makes any sense to me was signing Gustavsson. Ugh. Note: That it doesn't make sense to me is no reason to believe that nothing good can come of it. I'm just saying I really have no idea what the plan was this offseason based on the moves we've made/haven't made. I'm in the dark.

Awesome article on why a team should be willing to take a chance on Semin. My apologies if it's already been posted somewhere, I didn't feel like scrolling back through the entire discussion to verify. http://www.anguscertified.com/alexander-semin-and-ignoring-the-10-percent/

Zetterberg is the Captain, and Doan, Datsyuk, and Kronwall would get the A's.

At this point I'd say that there's even money that Brunner will show up and make a difference. You're right, the Swiss league is weak, but the kid did put up incredibly impressive numbers at the World Championships against NHL level talent. I know the international game is on bigger ice and isn't as physical, but it's not as though he's only ever played against garbage competition.