kipwinger

Good on him for saying so, but no matter how much they "want it" or don't, "play heavy" or don't, "stick to it" or don't, you're not going to beat national hockey league teams with AHL level talent. Particularly when the NHL players you do have in the lineup are largely the supporting cast. This team has serious holes in it that haven't been addressed for about four years now. Until they get addressed, they'll struggle...healthy or not...effort or not. I do want to say that I like seeing Franzen step up though. He's played well since his return and I always love seeing guys try to be a factor off the ice as well as on it.

How do you not like Backes?

Erhoffs rights were traded to the Islanders, whom he didn't sign with, before he hit the market and signed with Buffalo in FA. If I remember correctly. Edit: And I didn't remember correctly because his rights were traded twice that year, first to the Island and then to Buffalo. So your point is valid and mine was wrong. Acknowledged.

I wonder if Holland ever thinks to himself, "I guess I should have 'overpaid' for a good defenseman when I had the chance". Like, I don't expect him to ever come out and say it, but I wonder if he thinks it. If so, it was probably right around the time he was trying to trade assets for the very same Christian Erhoff that half this forum was screaming to sign three years ago.

Ok, one at a time. Nowhere, at all, did I ever say that Alfie didn't deserve to be in the top six. But in your first post you didn't say top six, you said top line. Also, Neither Alfie or Abby should be on the top line given the fact that Franzen and Nyquist are our two best scoring wingers and they're both healthy. But if we're talking about the whole top six now, its not surprising that Babs has Abby in the top six given that he values defensively responsible guys. Secondly, I agree our PP is terrible. But given that our powerplay is terrible, and throughout the season Babs has preferred Kindl, Eaves, Samuelsson, and just about everyone else to Smith (or E) on the point, doesn't that tell you something about how good he is there? Or whether the coach feels he's earned a spot? Now, I'm open to the idea that Babs is just being a big ol' bully and trying to hold Smith back, but probably it's just that he either a) doesn't trust him, or b) Smith isn't good on the PP.

Barking up the wrong tree on this one. Keith has been suspended several times. He's not getting any sort of special treatment as your post suggests. Also, Datsyuk is not in the lineup because of a knee injury. It had nothing to do with the Cowen hit. So that's a bit off base as well.

Not like we were killing it with them in the lineup though.

That's just crazy. I mean, if Legwand wasn't going to single handedly drag us into the playoffs through his sheer strength of character and hockey prowess, then why did we give up good assets for him rather than just sign him in the offseason?

Does this mean that the difference between us making the playoffs and not making the playoffs WAS NOT David Legwand?

I realize that around here it's customary to bash Quincey for the fun of it, but he's WAY better than Brendan Smith. Way better. The fact that he actually plays defense is a big reason why. Brendan hasn't quite figured out that the word "defense" in his position isn't simply a coincidence. Secondly, Abby isn't on the first line...Nyquist-Legwand-Franzen is the first line. But even if he were, it would prove my point. To earn time on this team you need to play a responsible 200 ft. game. Abby does. Brendan doesn't.

Finally, Tootoo is back. This will put an end to our goal scoring woes.

Why not change the entire structure of the team for Brendan? Hell, if he only got offensive zone starts, and played on the first pair, and had PP time, and were allowed to pinch whenever he wanted, he'd put up WAY more points than he has. Nevermind whether he's earned any of that, or what the other guys on the team need for their development/success. F*ck them, lets get Brendan some numbers! On this team, with this coach, you earn your time by playing the right way. Brendan doesn't...that's why he's not on the PP. Edit: I'm not going to dwell on this too much, but saying "I'm not comparing Smith to Kronwall and E" right after you compare them, doesn't actually mean you aren't comparing them. It just means you're aware that it's tenuous.

The whole thing is a joke. It just takes some people longer to get it than others.

This ret*ard has been banished to the third pairing (where he belongs) and he still can't make a decent pass against bottom six talent on a s***ty team. I honestly can't believe the people complaining about how he needs more PP time/How his game is negatively influenced by Quincey. I'll give a nice hefty back slap to the person who starts the "Poor Brian Lashoff, having to Play with Smith" thread. As always, he'll get get better. But god knows why so many people make excuses for this dips***...oh wait...he occasionally (but rarely) fights guys. Durrrr....

Lots of teams win lots of Cups without Shea Weber...like all of the them. So why give up that much to get him when the reality is hit cap hit is so prohibitive you team will never win as long as he's on it. How many times do teams have to sign Webers, and Ovechkins, and Lecavaliers, and Kovalchuks to HUGE contracts with no success afterward before people realize it's their contracts which are the problem. No thanks on Shea Weber.

I completely agree, and my views on Smith are pretty well established. But I do recognize that a guy can develop late...particularly in our system. I was one of the "f*ck Ericsson" folks a couple years ago and I had to eat crow on that. So I have to at least consider the possibility that Smith could do the same, as much as I hate his stupid face.

We do need better defense. And having one NHL caliber centerman (who isn't Crosby or Stamkos) and a bunch of kids, is not noticeably better than having a bunch of kids and no NHL caliber centers. With or without Legwand, unless some key guys get healthy quick we're not making the playoffs. Which is why I'd rather have kept the assets and risked ending the streak...or...spent the assets on a defenseman who was signed for more than this season. But that's just me. I stand behind my objection to the terms of the trade.

He didn't perform well in 19 games in the World Championships (which is made up of junior players) but did perform well in more than 19 games in the AHL (made up of professionals). I'm not sure what your point is here? That a couple years ago, in a small sub-sample, he didn't perform well? Agreed. But it's equally true that he's now playing much better hockey in a much more difficult league. Any value he lost (not sure he did), he regained by being a stud over his last 36 games with the Griffins.

One of my all time favorite hockey moments. Awesome by all involved.

Hard to argue with you. I was obviously always more of a Kindl guy, but he's been sitting and it hasn't really hurt us so I really can't say I've got strong feelings either way anymore. I'm not particularly happy with either, but I suppose a s***ty defenseman, who scores occasionally, and punches someone once in a while is better than a s***ty defenseman, who scores occasionally, and doesn't. To be honest I think both of them would be drastically better if they were on different teams. Like every other position, Babs requires his players be good both ways, and neither of these guys seem up to it (so far). On a team where they could just do all offense, all the time, both would at least excel in that regard. Seems like Babs would rather not have the offense if it means being bad defensively, while others might rather accept the bad defense in favor of more offense. On a team where they were turned loose they'd produce more, but their defensive development would essentially end right where it is now.

Haha, there are soooo many smart ass things I want to say right now. Instead I'll try to be productive. Move Abby back to center for the time being and call up Pulkkinen or Callahan. Other option is to finally give Ferraro a ticket to the big show.

I actually think with Kindl it's about guts, and with Smith it's about smarts. Kindl won't take a hit to make a good pass...Smith WILL take the hit AND THEN turn around and make the bad pass. It's hard to gauge what's worse, a coward or an idiot.

I think you need to temper that a bit. I agree that he's a rookie and therefore it's premature to throw in the towel on him...but...lots of other rookies (Lashoff and Dekeyser for instance) manage to go game to game without being noticeably terrible at protecting the puck or maintaining zone coverages. Smith is bad at both...even for a rookie. The guy you were responding to is wrong for thinking that Smith's deficiencies doom him to a awful career, likewise you're wrong for insinuating that his being a rookie excuses him from having to play responsible defense.

I don't know how any of you could possibly know what type of player he's going to be one way or another. People used to have the same arguments about Tatar and Nyquist, and before that Filppula and Hudler. Fact is, you just don't know this early in his career what type of player he's going to be. Secondly, it's entirely possible that he could be BOTH a big time player in the NHL as one of you suggested and a 40-60 pt. player as the other suggested. If Jarnkrok was scoring 25-30 goals a season and another 25-30 assists PLUS good defense wouldn't that make him a "big time player"? Stop arguing, neither of you know what he'll turn into and truthfully you're both pretty close to each other when you decide to speculate what he'll be. Truth is, we traded long term potential for short term gain. Apparently Holland believed it was preferable to lose the potential of a top flight center (Jarnkrok's upside) for a chance to sneak into the playoffs this year. Personally, I think it's a bad decision but you're welcome to disagree. But to try and make it seem like Jarnkrok was a B prospect, or that Legwand is a horrible trade (or a savior of one), is both incorrect and intellectually beneath each of you.

I usually follow any former Red Wings. There are a lot of guys around the league that I respect, or whom I'd want on our team, but I wouldn't say I have any favorites. I don't even really have a favorite Red Wing...just a favorite team.