krsmith17

Keith definitely played with an edge. I'm not sure how many times he was suspended in his career, but I'd think he would have been several times in today's game. I wouldn't say he was a cheap shot artist, but he definitely got his jabs in when he could. Like I said though, he could back it up. I'm okay with players like that, as long as they don't cross the line. Matt may be towing that line now... Keith had 18 fights in his career. He never would have been confused for an enforcer, but I think he was definitely considered a power-forward in his day. Your definition may be different from mine, but I don't think you need to be a heavy fighter to be a power-forward. To me, Ryan Getzlaf and Jamie Benn have been two of the better power-forwards in the game the past decade, and neither have ever been big time fighters, but can definitely hold their own. Blake Wheeler and Rick Nash are also pretty good examples of what I would consider power-forwards. Ovechkin is also considered to many to be the best power-forward in the game today, and he's only had 2 fights in his career. Franzen was also a pretty good power-forward in his own right, but when it came to fighting, he may have been one of the worst I've seen...

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think he has to resort to that style of play to be effective. It just comes natural to him, being the son of Keith. Like his father, Matt (and Brady) have a ton of skill, but can play that abrasive, in your face style of hockey. They can also back it up. These are the types of players that opponents and opposing fans hate, while teammates and local fans love. I'd say the only shame is that we weren't able to draft him. I think he'll be around a point per game player, that can do it all. I'm excited for Givani Smith, but unfortunately he doesn't have half the skill as Tkatchuk.

Nyquist has and will continue to be once again this season, a 40-50 point player. He hasn't fallen off a cliff...

Good trade to clear cap space, and get a better pick, but Wilson blows. I'd play Booth over him every game, and even consider Witkowski over him at this point.

I can't speak for @AtlantaHotWings, but I took it as a fear that if we are in a playoff spot (or close), Holland will stand pat, instead of trading assets like Green. That's my fear as well. Holland needs to trade Green to the highest bidder at the deadline, regardless of where we sit in February.

@chaps80, I think you'd be hard pressed to find (m)any that would agree with you on Abby getting the C. I guess you never know, stranger things have happened, but I'd be shocked if it were anyone other than Larkin. I'd say 98% chance Larkin, 1% chance Abdelkader, 0.5% chance DeKeyser, and 0.5% chance other... Just curious though, let's say Abdelkader were the next Red Wings captain. Would you be happy with that decision? Or do you just think that's who it will be, but should be someone else?

Yup, I always have to be right, despite the fact that I said I was wrong... It's not the first time and certainly won't be the last. I could be wrong that any sort of change in the way Smith (or any other player) was developed, would have made any real difference in the player he is today as well. I think he could have been used differently, and maybe been a better player because of that. Again, I could be wrong on that, but there's no real way to know for sure. But for you, CRL and Buppy to say I'm wrong based on something so subjective, something there's absolutely no way to determine to be true or false, is asinine.

Nice trolling Euro_Twins... I don't think anyone would say that Sheahan would be close to a 50 goal scorer, but I'd definitely hear an argument that he could have been better if handled differently. Whoever argued that would obviously be wrong though, and there would be people here that would argue that opinion for years and years, because Holland and Babcock / Blashill are perfect. They could never do any wrong, especially when it comes to player development... They're professionals. What do us as fans know... NOTHING!

Did you even bother reading what @Neomaxizoomdweebie was quoting when he used his Hogan "Amen Brother!" meme? It had absolutely nothing to do with Smith, but rather Cholowski and Hronek. Since you responded to his quote though, how would you respond if they made the NHL playing with AHL quality defensemen? What about if they were deployed on the penalty kill and not the power-play? What about if they were constantly in and out of the lineup due to "rookie mistakes"? You'd obviously say that was the best situation for them, nothing should have been done differently... I'd say they were being mishandled, the same way I've said from day one that Smith was being mishandled. That's the thing, I could understand people saying "he's just looking for an excuse", if I wasn't vocal about his misusage from the beginning. If I acted like his usage was fine 5 years ago, and after he failed to meet expectations, all of a sudden said "well he was mishandled", I'd understand the backlash. That's far from the case though. "Pile of excuses being made because certain people just can't admit they were wrong in they're predictions about some players". LOL except for the fact that I admitted many, many times that I was wrong about my prediction of Smith. You guys continuously say that I won't admit I was wrong, when I have several times, or say that I think it was all on management, when I've said continuously that it was partially on management. I've admitted several negative things about Smith, mainly his inability to fight through adversity. To be a good pro athlete, you have to be mentally strong, Smith obviously wasn't. You guys just can't admit that Smith's failures may have had something to do with this organization... You can disagree, but that doesn't make either opinion right or wrong. This is about how we believe high end prospects should be developed / transitioned into the NHL. I think these types of players, especially the highly skilled, offensive guys, should be handled much differently then your average prospect. You think it's okay to play them with scrubs, in a role they've never played in their entire hockey career, constantly in and out of the lineup. I don't. You're right about one thing though. I have no idea if Smith would have turned out better if he had been handled differently, just like you guys have no idea that he wouldn't. One thing's for sure though, I wouldn't have said s*** if I truly believed he was put in an optimal situation to succeed. He wasn't. Anyway, it's all conjecture, which is why it's beyond ridiculous that this is still being discussed. Get over yourselves. Everything is NOT black and white. There is room for interpretation on the way individual players were handled. Not everyone is going to agree. For most people, that's okay. For the few that always have to be "right", differing opinions scare them...

Abdelkader only missed one game on November 11th against Columbus. Since then, in the past 4 games he has 7 points (2 goals, 5 assists). He's obviously not going to keep anywhere close to that pace, nor is he likely to keep the *61* point pace. I'd love nothing more than to see him do it though and become an annual 60 point player, but I wouldn't bet on that. If he can hover around the 40-45 point range for the next 3-5 years, maybe top 50 in one season, I'll be happy. I'm sure his down season last year has a lot to do with fans hating on him, but I think it has more to do with his contract. I personally love Abby. He's the type of player you want on your team, and he's a solid middle 6 winger. If he were paid about $0.5-1M less, on a 4-5 year contract, instead of 7, I don't think many fans would have a problem with him. Anyway, I think Abdelkader is a good alternate captain, but I'd be shocked to ever see him wear the C in Detroit...

No, in Detroit, not Grand Rapids. Again, misrepresentation or misinterpretation... As I said, Smith played 14 games in his first NHL season. Janik played 9 games? Well Smith must have played upwards of 90% of those 9 games with Janik. You don't think "Janik was a low quality partner"? "lol" I haven't abandoned the PK argument. I still think that is one of the reasons Smith was mishandled early in his career. The same way I would think putting Hronek on the PK in his first season or two would be a blunder by the coaching staff. I'm still discussing because you're still telling me my opinion is "wrong", which I find ridiculous. I just don't understand why it's so difficult for you to accept an opinion (as stupid as you may think it is), and move on... I agree with a lot of your hockey views / opinions, but one I do disagree with is your opinion of Babcock being the best coach in the NHL. However, I'm not going to spend countless hours trying to prove your opinion wrong...

Ah the stating false information. Smith never got the "special courtesy" to play with Lidstrom in his first 7 games. Smith played 14 games in Lidstrom's last season and played a whopping 0.5% of his time paired with Lidstrom. His most consistent partner was Janik, which he played 48.4% of his time with. I never once said it was any of his D partners fault (misrepresentation), nor did I say he always had bad partners (again, misinterpretation). For the first year or two, he spent the better chunk of his time with scrubs. No Janik was not supposed to prop Smith up. Janik wasn't even an NHL quality defenseman. It's on the coaching staff to put the highly touted kid with a partner that would benefit him. Maybe Babcock thought that was Janik. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that wouldn't disagree with that though. Lashoff has consistently been paired with Russo, but I'd be completely okay with him being paired with Hronek down in Grand Rapids. Playing with Lashoff down in GR, who is a top pair defenseman down there, and playing with Lashoff in Detroit, who shouldn't be near the NHL, is two completely different things...

Imagine the backlash if I used Karlsson as a comparison to Smith in any way, shape or form... You're comparing one of the best defensemen in the game today to Brendan Smith... There are a lot of elite defensemen that play penalty-kill. They play both special teams because the coach usually never wants them off the ice. You know who else plays PK? Subban, Doughty, etc. Smith is obviously not any of these players, nor was he ever in the conversation to be... Sure, if that was the only reason I've stated. It wasn't though. Do you think playing with career AHL defensemen coming into the league was the best situation for your highly touted first round pick? I don't. If Cholowski or Hronek make the team in the next year or two and are paired with the equivalent of Doug Janik / Brian Lashoff for their first couple years and play penalty kill and see very little power-play opportunity, I will say the same thing; they're being mishandled. Maybe they overcome that, like others have in this league, or maybe they fade out because of a lack of mental toughness. I would hope it would be the former, but then again, I hope they're never put in that sort of situation to find out. Put your players (especially your high draft picks) in the best situation to succeed early on in their careers. That's all I ask.

I don't want to discuss it anymore because it's been beaten to death. Yeah, because you haven't purposely misrepresented my stance at all... You act as if I'm saying it's all on coaching / management, when I've clearly stated both sides are at fault. More of the onus should probably be put on the player, but coaching / management did play a factor in his development. Whether that was a positive factor (your stance), or somewhat negative factor (my stance)... I notice you said "IMO, no". Well IMO, yes. Who's right and who's wrong? Neither because it's all just conjecture, aka opinion... The bolded is also just your opinion. My opinion is that playing an offensive minded defenseman on the penalty kill is just one example of how he was mishandled. The same way you wouldn't play a defensive defenseman on the power-play. Again, it's a dumb coaching strategy in my opinion. I also think pairing him with scrubs for his first two years in the league didn't help matters. You disagree. Cool...

16 points (4 goals, 12 assists) in 21 games. Not too shAbby!

What's the point in discussing it any further? It's been a back and forth argument for over FIVE f***ing years... I say I believe Smith could have been handled better by Babcock and company. Being a notable Babcock slappy, you say he put him in the best position to succeed. It's my opinion (along with a few others) against yours (along with a few others). Who gives a s***? I don't. I could care less why you think Smith failed to meet expectations, but for whatever reason you and kickazz get offended that I believe it was partially on the organization. Why that bothers you two so much is beyond me... You've asked me to explain how he was mishandled or what could have been done differently, and I've listed several reasons and remedies, but for whatever reason, that's not good enough. I'm acting childish? Haha. I took a fallacious stance agreeing with you in hopes this would end... Apparently not... I'm done talking about Smith. He's a New York Ranger. Who gives a f*** why he failed with the Wings? He did and I've admitted that. Cholowski is a very similar type of defenseman as Smith, with similar hype already. Most everyone is projecting Cholo to be a top 4 defenseman, and some believe he has the potential to become a top 2. Both are smooth skating, puck moving defensemen that had / have a ton of potential. I hope when Cholowski eventually makes the team, he is put in a position that best suits his skill set. I hope he is played with a veteran like Green or someone similar (not a Doug Janik, Kyle Quincey or Brian Lashoff type...). I hope he is given power-play time, and not removed immediately if the power-play isn't successful. I hope he's held accountable, but not given too short a leash where he finds himself a healthy scratch every other game because of rookie mistakes (when the vets are making the same mistakes...). And MOST importantly, I hope he's not expected to play a shut-down role, when he's never been expected to play that style at any level. If you draft a player because he's a big, stay at home defenseman, you're not going to keep throwing him on the power-play to try to spark some offense, so why would you draft an offensive defenseman and try to mold him into a defensive defenseman? It's dumb. Anyway, if Cholowski is put in the best situation to succeed, I think he will be a damn good defenseman. If he doesn't meet expectations and someone here says they think he is being mishandled, I may question it, but I sure as hell won't say their opinion is wrong for FIVE f***ing years! LOL. Get over yourselves and MOVE ON! I think Smith was mishandled for the reasons stated above. You disagree. If you haven't realized yet that I'm not saying either side is right or either side is wrong, I don't know what to say... It is not black and white. It's a f***ing opinion...

Yeah, I used to think he was mishandled, until you opened my eyes. Thanks for that. It's very clear to me now that Smith was put in the optimal position to succeed from day one. The way Babcock handled him was perfect. Smith couldn't have asked for a better situation to be in. Unfortunately for him, he just sucked too bad. Zero skill, borderline NHL defenseman... Oh well, ya win some, ya lose some...

Yup, that's literally the only reason... You're not saying 100% of this was on Smith? No kidding. I'm not saying 100% of this was on management either... Crazy hey? It could actually be a multitude of reasons. Not just that Smith always sucked... I believe Smith's shortcomings were partially due to the organization not putting him in a position to succeed earlier in his career, which shook his confidence. And partially on Smith for allowing that to shake his confidence, aka, a lack of determination to fight through the adversity... Like so many have mentioned before, Smith had all the tools, but no toolbox. There are a ton of players that have all the skill in the world, but never reach their full potential. Is it all on them? Nope. Is it all on everyone around them? Nope. Things aren't always black and white... Can we please talk about how we disagree on the reason Smith failed to meet expectations for another 3 pages?... Please...

I know skill level doesn't determine whether or not you can captain a team. I said exactly that in the post you replied to. I disagree though that it wouldn't be a decline in captaincy standards... Has Zetterberg announced his retirement and I missed it? It's still 3 1/2 years until he officially retires. He may leave before then, but he's here for at least another year or two. Larkin will be 23-24 by then. It's not like we'd be handing it off to a 19 year old kid... Larkin has also been being groomed to take over since day one, immediately given a stall next to Z. Time will tell, but I'd make a wager on this one for sure.

Nah, I'd take the bet on Larkin being the next captain over Abdelkader. I know the captain doesn't necessarily have to be the best player, and it can go to a role player, as we've seen with Steve Ott captaining the Sabres, or Tim Taylor, the Lightning, or Andrew Ferrence, the Oilers... But are we willing to set our captaincy standard to that level? We're going to go from Steve Yzerman, to Nicklas Lidstrom, to Henrik Zetterberg, to Justin Abdelkader? I'd be very surprised if that were to happen, and to be honest, a little annoyed. Abby is a great alternate captain, I just wouldn't want him wearing the C... Larkin will get the C when Zetterberg retires, Abdelkader will keep his A, and DeKeyser will get the other A when Kronwall retires. If we ever decide to go back to 3 alternates, maybe Mantha, Rasmussen or Cholowski get it...

You're wrong. No, that's where you're wrong. Only one can be correct. It's all on the player. It has nothing to do with coaching management. You sir, couldn't be more wrong. I hope you all learned a valuable lesson here. Things are always black and white, and kickazz is always right. Smith sucks, he was destined to suck, and there was absolutely no avoiding the suckage.

Whatever you say man...

F*** off with your rational. Smith sucks because he's stupid. Remember that one time he batted the puck with his glove while sitting on the bench? What an idiot. By the way, Babcock is God.

Nah, not really. Maybe an outside chance of being as good as Mantha, but I highly doubt it. I hope so though...

Umm No...