kliq

I'm not arguing that the trade would not work, I 100% agree with you there. My question was in regards to you saying it wouldn't work cap wise, as I don't agree with that. If you signed Trouba for 6, and then brought up someone from GR to replace Helm, I think you we would be fine even with only 600,000 to spare.

You never answered the question Dickie. If Helm/Smith are clearing up 6.6 million in that trade proposal and you claim that's not enough cap space for Trouba, what do you think Trouba will sign for?

Agreed it doesnt get Trouba, but how high of a cap-hit do you think he will be? Helm and Smith alone are 6.6 million.

You're right......my trade wouldn't work because of the cap. You have to give up someone with a similar cap hit and guys like Mantha, AA are not even close to what Trouba will end up being. Maybe you throw a guy like AA in there with a Smith/Tatar and a pick? Though losing AA and Tatar would hurt us offensively. I'm glad I'm not Holland right now.

I dont know why I take the bait, but you just can't resist taking shots at the Wings huh. We have plenty of talent on this team. Trouba is not going to come cheap, but we definitely have assets that should intrigue Winnipeg. If I am Holland, I offer AA, Marchenko, 1st rounder, 3rd rounder, Howard for Trouba and Pavelec. If Chevy has no interest in the goalies, then I try again.

Larkin, Trouba, DD, and Mrazek definitely gives us a very strong core.

You're not wrong.

No you don't, we are not talking PK Subban here. He wants Larkin, 1st rounder, and a roster player you laugh in his face. You have to make the right move, making a trade for the sake of making the trade is just stupid.

You got to think though, why would they say anything but. You try to get the best deal possible. I would fine with anyone going the other way except Mrazek and Larkin.

They actually do, most teams have about 2 to 4 guys that have contracts like that. We signed Helm, Abby, Glendenning and Nielson. Edmonton has signed Lucic, Sekera, and Pouliot. (i know some will say Lucic is not a middling vet, wait a year or so). Buffalo has signed Okposo and Moulson. (I know some will say Okposo scored 22, not far off from Abby's 19) Winnipeg signed Perreault and traded for Myers. I think I made my point. I have said this before, I will say it again. We have 2 bad contracts right now which are E and Howard. Take them away, and we are doing just fine.

So I guess we are debating the re-build lol. Doing the same things over and over again when you have had great success, is hard to argue against. The last time Holland did a re-build on the fly was when he had to transition from Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Luc, Hasek, Fedorov, Larionov and others, and Holland did it successfully and won a Stanley Cup, almost 2. This time, he is doing the same thing, but in a completely different system (ie. cap) which means you cannot do it as fast and it must be more youth based due to the cap. Here is our top 20 that played most nights (12 Forwards, 6 D, 2 Goalies) in 2012, I will bold anyone who is no longer in our projected top 18 for 2016/17: Cleary, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Zetterberg, Hudler, Miller, Abby, Bertuzzi, Helm, Emmerton, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, White, Kronwall, Stuart, Quincey, E, Howard, Conklin Assuming E and Miller get a starting spot (which is not a given), we have gotten rid of 13 guys. HUGE amount of turnover in just 4 years. On our roster now we have Larkin, Mrazek, AA, Mantha?, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, DD, Marchenko, with Jurco, Pulk, XO, and Sproul trying to break into the lineup and alot of top prospects in the minors led by Svechnikov and Mantha? in the waiting. Without a question, Holland is re-building. Now, whether or not it is successful remains to be seen. When the mandate from ownership is to keep your streak alive (dont kid yourself, Mr. I cares about this streak, it's his legacy), but you also have to re-build, that isn't the easiest task out there. I will say though, it can be a very efficient way of going about it as creating a culture of losing can be an awful thing (ask any Lions fan about this). You talk about Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg, Florida and the Isles, but how much success has actually been obtained by any of these teams with their tank jobs? Who cares about message board/media hype, what matters is results on the ice. Edmonton has been a joke of a franchise since 2006, how many #1 overall picks and top #5 picks have they had and they still have not gotten into the playoffs. McDavid does appear to be on a different level, but if anyone could screw him up, it would be them. Buffalo has done nothing and have not made the playoffs in years, I think you over-hype Eichel a bit and put wayyyy to much pressure on the kid. Florida got in last year at a high seed, but were bounced early and until they can show consistency, I have a hard time seeing their transition as a success. Toronto and Winnipeg have done nothing, and while the Isles have been consistent in the regular season that past few years, have won 1 playoff series since 1993! I cant see how the Isles can be looked at in a higher light then Wings right now. The only thing the Isles have done that the Wings have not, is they got a #1 pick who they may lose in a year or two. Now dont misinterpret me, I am not saying all of these teams are failing or are going to fail, what I am saying is that the teams you listed have not accomplished anymore then the Wings with their re-build. I know you only think a player can be great if he was taken top 5, but there is no reason not to think that Larkin will not be our #1 centre as like I have showed before, statistically speaking he is at the same level as Eichel. Either way, we are going in circles. You want the Wings to get a top 5 pick and to bottom out, I do not. The only way to see if this re-build is working is to give it time. I hope you can see this. On a side note, Cleary was mentioned in my post

Rather then go for a Canadian d-man or a Michigan d-man etc. Lets just try to get a D-man who has the skill set that what we need regardless of where he was born.

I would be absolutely shocked if Jensen made the team. I think XO and Sproul are both her though come opening night.

There is no way the Wings brass and ownership don't care about winning a cup. Everyone here and in management/ownership want the same thing. Every team in the history of sports has a decline at some point, clearly Wings fans are having a very hard time with this emotionally and cannot not take this team not being contenders. We were legit contenders for about 20 years, and have been mediocre for about 4-5 years. If things turn around and we become contenders again soon with this group of young players using the "overripe philosophy", this will be looked at as typical bump in the road that every team has to deal with. If the Wings are floating around the 8th seed for the next 5-6 years (like the Leafs 2006-2015), then yes its a problem. Despite what all the arm chair GM's think right now, only time will tell if Hollands rebuild on the fly plan will work.

Once again Frank, you say you are not going to comment on something, only to comment on it immediately. I addressed Holland's comments in my post, I don't feel like going in circles with you for the one hundredth time. You have made it pretty clear that you want the Wings to tank because in your opinion that is the only way to build a franchise. Newsflash though, "Mr.I" and family are the one's with the ultimate say, you can vilify Holland all you want.

This is a false narrative that has been created which depicts Holland as the antagonist who is single handedly ruining this team with all his horrible players and the "Swedish Mafia". Also in this false narrative, "Mr.I" who is the protagonist is sitting back just waiting to make his move and save the day because he is the best owner in sports and has nothing to do with anything Red Wing related during this treacherous time. The reality, Ken Holland/Wings Management AND the Illitch family have plan in place to do a re-build on the fly while still staying competitive/keeping the streak alive. I know some like to say that this not a re-build, but they are wrong. I fully admit, it is not a tank job where any player over the age of 25 is being moved in order to land a top 5 pick multiple years in a row while praying that they turn into elite cornerstone players, but it is still a re-build. Anyone who looks at this logically and keeps emotion out of it can see that. The amount of turnover we have had over the last 5 years is more then I can remember in my entire lifetime in that short of a period. The Wings are in an odd position, we are in a time of parity where teams can go from non playoff teams to contenders, or Stanley Cup champs to non playoff teams in one season, they have a team that is good but not great, they have the streak, they are not contenders, they have really good young kids, but they also have declining vets. They cant use the words "re-build" in the media as that implies giving up, but they also cant say they are going for it, as that just makes them look dumb. Again, a very odd situation. Luckily we have some building blocks in place (Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha etc.) that will either pay off within the next couple years, or prove to be a failure. We are definitely missing that 1A d-man, but if we can land that, I dont think we are too far off with Larkin/Nielsen/Helm/Glendening down the middle, and all that talent on the Wing. Also, anything that thinks the Ilitch family doesn't care about the streak and that it's all Ken Holland, please try to consider using logic.

I get this is your subtle way of saying the Wings wont make the playoffs, as you say every year. I think there is too much talent on this team to not get in unless we see some serious regression from our younger players. I don't believe we are contenders or anything, but we should get that #3 spot in the division or one of the wild cards. Long story short, I dont see Holland trading him for a pick if they are in the playoff hunt. I also dont see him going for a second round pick if he doesnt come close to 20 goals like you are saying.

Its the off season and its boring, I am going to choose to take the bait again lol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what baffles everybody about yours in this instance is there is no fact, clues or logic about your opinion. It would be like me coming out randomly one day and saying "I think Larkin hates the Wings because Abby and Helm pick on him" then post comments all the time saying. "Well, if Abby and Helm keep this up, Larkin is going to leave", "I dont believe its all just dandy like you all think" etc. Anyways, this is stupid. Can we please have hockey back!

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is so true! Can this stupid tournament be over already, we need NHL hockey!

I dont think Datsyuk and Zetterberg are seeking your approval to validate their friendship lol. You can think whatever you want, but repeating the same ridiculous nonsense over and over and over again does not make it true.

I have no idea why a PTO would make a person so mad. As many posters wrote above, it allows him to be part of the early training camp process which hurts absolutely nobody.

Oh....that's weird, it shows up on my computer. This should work: http://kuklaskorner.com/assets/images/uploads/SPORT-28s01-polare-831_368_thumb.jpg

They do to me:

He had 15 points in 35 games playing on I'm guessing the third or forth line. Having a veteran presence like him in the AHL is not a bad thing and can only help with player development. I want him no where near the Wings, but I'm just fine with him playing on the Griffins as long as he can hold his weight.

What I dont understand is you constantly talk about AA and Mantha being held down by Helm, but if anything the signing that is holding those two down (if they do in in fact get held down) would be Vanek, who ironically you love the signing of. Yes I know Vanek is one year and Helm is 5 years, but in the context of players being held down this upcoming season, long term is a moot point. Vanek is the one taking minutes away from those two in a top 6 position while Helm will ideally be playing third line. If that plays out, Helm will likely be an upper end third liner, while Vanek will likely be a top 6 disappointment.