kliq

I see that, and I raise you:

Only on Letsgowings.com would the ramifications to a PTO be a firing of the GM lol. I guess this thread didnt have have its Helm quota yet.

Ughh we're doing this again. Can we just post a link of every thread from 2 months ago and move on.

Do you guys think that its possible that's Babcock's coaching style led to a lot of these injuries? We have had a ton of injuries under his watch, and if you look at Toronto's roster last year, they finished the season with a ridiculous amount of injuries as well. I may be way off, but it makes sense.

That's what I'm thinking of. As far as his line mates in '09, I think you are right. I think the Z-Cleary-Datsyuk line is what I remember because that's what they rolled with in game 7 of the finals.

I'm guessing you mean Helm. Didn't Datsyuk push to have Helm on his line? If I remember correctly, it went farther then just saying he would be ok with it, I remember him saying publicly that he wanted to play with him. I may be wrong, but I could swear that he said that. Also, wasn't Datsyuk playing with Z and Cleary in 2009?

I love how you skew your stats in order to spin your false narrative. What did you do, not count the first 2 games of the season because he scored 4, and then not count the last playoff game because he got 1 in an attempt to add validity to an already weak point? If you are going to evaluate him, use the entire season, dont use every game but 3 because the 3 games you dont count he scored 5 goals.

Agreed, not to mention Abby isn't being paid what he is being paid solely for goals. Funny how when people are talking about player they like (ie. Fowler) this is brought up, but when its a player they dont like, it becomes all about goals (not you kickazz). Every player on a team has a role, d-man or forward. Abby's role is to play with grit, go in the corners, stick up for teammates etc. and at the same time be a top 50 goal scorer in a league of over 540 players (if you just count 12 forwards/6 d-man per team). The guy has scored 42 goals over the last two years which puts him just below 50th in the NHL over that time (Oshie is 50th with 45 goals), he is the toughest/grittiest guy that we have, and on this team which is somewhat soft is definitely a player of value. He is easily worth 4.25mil/year. Now, in 2021 and 2022 will he be worth it, probably not, and I do wish that he signed for 5 years but this contract is just the reality of today's NHL. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-2-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

Again, if it were one other supposed team that was interested I would see where you are coming from, but its at least 4. I just dont see it, a bit too far fetched for me to believe that he received four incorrect pieces of information. Again, this is not me saying that Helm deserved/should have been worth the contract, but rather me talking about what his market value was based on interest from other GM's. Huge difference.

Out of curiosity, what do you think Dreger's motive is for fabricating this story? If he reported that one team offered more, I could see there being a misunderstanding (ie. bad source), but when its reported 4 + teams were interested and he took a discount to stay with Detroit, why would the entire story be made up/a lie? He's an established reporter who doesn't need to fabricate stories. This story doesn't scream "conspiracy" either, so I dont know why people are so dismissive of it. Either way, my point as never if Helm is or isnt worth his contract. My point was when a poster said "who would want him" that there are teams that want him. I think sometimes posters let their personal feelings of a player cloud their judgement of reality. We are not talking a poll of GM's here where the majority voted that they would sign him to that deal, we are talking 5/30 GM's have interest in Helm at that price or higher, not exactly unfathomable IMO. Bad contracts are given out all the time, its not like this is something exclusive to Holland. Hell, Columbus traded for David Clarkson, you never know what another GM is willing to do. The thing is, I believe he reported this after Helm signed. What would be the point? If it were before he signed, different story. I think Helm is one of those guys who if he is on a great team, that narrative on him is "great player who does all the little things right, worth every penny" but on a team like Detroit the narrative becomes "ughhh another bad contract for a guy who cant score more then 20 goals".

According to Darren Dreger Dallas, Boston, Calgary, and Vancouver were all interested and he took a discount to stay in Detroit. Other outlets reported that as well. I am just passing on what I have read, and its not like Darren Dreger is some kid writing a BLOG, he is pretty reliable.

Probably the other teams that were interested in Helm when he was about to hit Free Agency. It was reported that he took a discount to stay. https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedWings/comments/4qrvts/darren_dreger_on_twitter_regarding_helm_he_took/

Kopitar wasn't a top 5 pick, you are just making that up to try to prove a point. He was picked 11th overall in 2005. You make it sound like having a top 5 pick is a requirement/guarantee in winning a cup. Obviously drafting a franchise player will help those odds, but it by no means assures anything. You list a couple teams that have won a cup with 2 top 5 picks in Chicago and Pittsburgh, but that is telling a story by using a small sample size. It can be done the other way as well. The easiest go to is Edmonton, since 2006 they have had 6 top 5 picks, 9 top 10 picks and they have not made the playoffs one time in that span. How many top 5 or top 10 picks have Carolina, Columbus, Buffalo, Winnipeg/Atlanta, Florida, NJ, Colorado etc. had and done absolutely nothing. Tanking is the right thing to do in certain situations (ie. I am not against Toronto tanking), we are not in that situation. We are a couple stars away from being contenders, and a couple of injuries away from being awful as we are in an age of parity. I love how you say you are "NOT" going to argue semantics, only to then argue semantics in the same sentence (I think you did that twice on this page lol). We get it Frank, in your mind the only way to move a team in the right direction is to trade every player over the age of 25, get last place in the league, get a first overall pick who becomes a superstar, then win a cup. Great on paper, but in the real world it works only a small handful of times and more often then not it sinks a team. Guys like Kane, Crosby, McDavid etc. are not a guarantee to land by taking that approach. I'm not even going to address the false narrative of UFA's refusing to come here, that has been proven wrong many times. Nobody is saying that Larkin is going to win the Hart Frank, but the kid has talent and is the kind of player you build around. Add in Mrazek and the rest of the kids and we are building towards something. Maybe not this year, but in a couple years I can see us being legit contenders. Lets just all cross our fingers and hope we get that d-man. We all want the same thing here, nobody is cheering for mediocrity, we just disagree with how to get to our end goal.

Good point Euro Twins, I'd also like to know what defines the streak as being "meaningless". Maybe Frank Grimes from Letsgowings.com doesn't give a crap about it, but ownership, management, coaches, players etc. take great pride in that streak and its disrespectful to people like Mike Ilitich, Scotty Bowman, Mike Babcock, Ken Holland etc. when its called "meaningless".....its not. With that being said, I am not satisfied with making the playoffs and being eliminated in the first round every year. If we were a team of all older vets and doing this, I would be pissed. However with a core moving forward of Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Marchenko, Svechnikov etc. Good secondary and still very young players like Tatar and Nyquist and young guys that still could surprise (ie. XO, Sproul, Jurco, Pulkkinen) I am excited of where this team is going. Now if we traded our young players for a bunch of 29-33 year olds that would make us slightly better this year, I would not be happy, but we are not doing that as like I have said a million times, we are re-building.

The Helm deal is not as bad as your little tantrum is making it out to be. If we were paying him to be a goal scorer then yes I would agree with you, but the guy brings much more to this team then just scoring goals which is evident by the fact that other teams were willing to pay him as much or more then we did. The Glendening deal is a bit high in salary, but you are making i sound like he is being paid 5 mil/year. These deals are not going to break us. I dont think we will have an issue with paying guys like Larkin and co. as by the time they are due for major increases in pay not only will the cap be up, but guys like Miller, Ott, Green, Kronwall, Smith etc. will be gone and I would be shocked if Zetterberg is not on LTIR as I cant see his back holding up until 2021. I'm not questioning your fandom and you can tell me to "bite your shiny ass" all you want, to me you just sound like a petulant child.

I agree with the AA part, if it was up to me AA would be on the opening day roster, Mantha I am not too sure about as I haven't personally seen him play enough in the AHL and I dont know the guy perosnally so I do not know if he is physical and/or mentally ready for a top 6 spot on an NHL team. I dont think Glendening or Helm's deals are as bad as you make them out to be. I think they only look as bad as they do when put them next to Abby's, Howard's and E's contracts. Take Away E and Howard and I think that those three look just fine (especially right now).

Agreed, I would hope that the Edmonton Oilers would be the poster child for how just throwing every young player on your roster can do a lot of harm and how a mixture of vets and youth is the way to go. With that being said, I hope AA is a top 9 forward on opening night. I do believe he has earned it.

A team that was tanking, yes you are right. No one is arguing that the Wings are trying to stay good while re-building.

Agreed. If anything I would compare what Holland is doing to what a team like SJ did last year, not Toronto. Very well said. "rebuild" and "tanking" are definitely confused by some on here. What people fail to realize is that for every Chicago and LA that tank and rebuild successfully, there are multiple teams that try the same thing and can't stay out of the bottom of the standings for a decade.

I would disagree with this. If they were not re-building they would be trading guys like AA, Mantha etc. for vets in their prime. The Wings are re-building while trying not to tank (ie. on the fly), and personally this is something I am a fan of as I dont want to be a Columbus, Winnipeg, Buffalo etc. who are absolutely dreadful for 10+ years and are still not contenders. I 100% agree with e-prime, do I agree with every decision that Holland makes? No. But, overall I like what they are doing as they have a lot of young prospects that I believe are going to be legit stars in this league. Hopefully we trade for that d-man, or a guy like Sproul, XO, Russo etc. surprise us and break out to be a top pairing D-man.

I wouldn't have an issue with an offer sheet if I believed it had a chance in hell in working, but from Weber to Kesler etc. history has shown that offer sheets do not work. I am 100% in on acquiring Trouba, but an offer sheet is just not the way to achieve our end goal, if that end goal is to get Trouba. I am for doing what gives up the best chance at landing him. If I were Holland I would offer something like AA, 1st round pick, and Howard for Trouba and Pavlec.

Here is the problem with an offer sheet. If you offer Trouba an offer sheet and he signs, Winnipeg just matches it out of principal and then if they do decide to trade him, you are out of the running. Not to mention, Trouba is taking the risk of being stuck in Winnipeg long term if decides to sign it.

It's always somewhere in middle Frank. You are making it sound like Trouba is an elite d-man right now, he is not going to get Winnipeg a guy like Larkin (not to mention "Larkin as a starting point". You have a history of overestimating a players value, this is just you doing it again. With that being said, he is going to get a lot more then second/third liners and d-men. Until he is signed, this is going to be interesting. This will never change lol, every year its the same doom and gloom approach, every year its the same "all of our players are crap, we will be lucky to not be in the bottom 5 in the league" mentality, and every year this is just wrong. This team definitely has a ways to go as we need to make the jump from fringe playoff team o contender as the re-build has failed to bring us a star d-man in the making (though DD is a great second pairing guy). At this point I do think that we need to trade one of our many forwards for a guy like Trouba.

You got to love it how what we need to give up for Trouba goes from Smith/Pulkkinen/Sheahan/XO to Larkin plus. Can we please stop going to extremes lol and just be a little bit more realistic with our discussion.

Stuart was a trade deadline acquisition. Bert and Lang were also trade deadline guys, pretty sure so was Schenieder. So the last decent player brought in not at the deadline would have to be Hasek on June 30th 2001. Wow.