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I just noticed that its available for purchase on YouTube

For anyone trying to claim that it wasnt easier to score in the 80's, even Gretzky himself admits it.

Oh boi, well this thread officially went off the rails.

Update, Ovie scored 2 more tonight. He's tied for the league lead.

His consistency is ridiculous, as it stands now (not including tonights games) he's only 2 down from Pastrnak with 45 goals. I could see him getting his 9th win this year.

I have zero issue with anything you are saying here, and to clarify everything I was saying was based on regular season goal scoring. Best player ever is a much easier debate, because you do bring up great points about Gretzky scoring as many goals that he did despite being a pass first guy. I guess in this debate selfishness plays a factor unfortunately. Now if we’re talking best player, hands down IMO it’s Gretzky and Ovie is not even in the conversation. Too bad Mario didn’t stay healthy during his prime, that could have been a great debate. I guess the issues with lists are that if you’re only ranking top 5 someone will be excluded. I put Bure on mine, but that was based on watching him play, obviously that is a bias as I never saw Howe play. He deserves to be in the convo though.

Huh, a @frankgrimes thread. Does he even post anymore? I feel like I havent seen him in years. I did see a post on HOF forums that seemed to be him, but then he disappeared soon after.

Bottom line, Ovie scored more goals per game then Gretzky in a era that scoring was harder to do and he won the scoring title 3 more times then Gretzky. I think that speaks for its self. I think my stats were very fair when I broke it down as I tried to show both in an even light. You just showed Gretzky. I actually would like to see your list. Who are your top 5 goal scorers of all time? To be blunt, I dont like it either when people dismiss players of older era's. But I also dont like when its done on the other side of the spectrum. Putting the past on a pedestal while dismissing the present is just as annoying. As for the rest, I honestly dont know what you mean by me changing the topic and as for this debate getting personal? I'm not the one who came out of nowhere to tell you that you were "full of it". Greatest goal scorer of all time. If the guy was never diagnosed with leukemia he likely has the all time record.

Ok, you're to a degree recycling the same rhetoric over and over again, so for the most part I'm not going to address the things you are just repeating. I already told you, I'm not "blaming" Gretzky for world hockey not being as developed in his era, Im using it as a small factor when comparing 2 of the best 3 goal scorers of all time. I'm not saying that Gretzky's scoring rate would have dropped 50% if the best in the world were all playing, but maybe it drops 2% or 5% or maybe even 10%. No way of knowing, but your attitude of ignoring it all together comes off as defensive and dismissive. Its also funny how you essentially accuse me of disrespecting an era when my #1 and #3 of all time are from that era as my ranking was 1) Lemieux, 2) Ovie, 3) Gretzky. I'll give you credit with the composite stick mention, now you're getting it. That should be a factor when talking about Ovie's goal scoring. You contradict your other points by mentioning this, but I agree this is a factor and an advantage that Ovie has. If I claimed that goalies being easier to score on is a factor, but this wasn't, I'd be dishonest. Either they both are factors, or neither are factors. I will be crystal clear by saying both. You can't say that composite sticks are a factor, but smaller pads are not. As to your last point, Gretzky didn't do that. You know this though as I laid it out (unless you didn't actually read my posts which wouldn't surprise me). In GOAL SCORING, he only decimated the competition in two seasons, the rest he pretty much was right there with the pack. You talk as if he beat everyone by 30 goals every year for a decade. Here is the bottom line with you, and you have always been this way. You dont give modern players any credit, and you will never put anyone modern above anyone of significance from the past. Everything that you are accusing people of doing to players of the past, you are doing to players of the present. My guess is that this is why you refuse to do rankings as your biases will be exposed. You can lie to me all you want, but do a list of any position publicly, we all know what its going to look like. Its a trope he always uses to dismiss modern day players, teams etc

Philly and Edmonton. I've always liked Phily as they were my best friends fav team growing up. As for Edmonton, I have Draisaitl on my fantasy team, so I've been paying more attention to them. Plus, it doesnt hurt that there are quite a few former Wings on the team.

Bold 1: We're not talking about points, this is strictly a debate about goal scoring. I never at any point during this conversation said that Gretzky wasn't the greatest player of all time, or that he wasn't the best overall scorer (ie. Points). Bold 2: BS, you add in better goalies, better D, and better forwards as opponents and you are not going to be as dominant. Why did he lead the league in points? He was the best player in the world, you're either completely ignoring context, or you don't understand what I am saying. We were discussing Gretzky's absolute dominance in the early 80's, and I made the point that when you are not playing against the best in the world, the separation between you and the rest of the pack will be larger. Also, points will be inflated if you are going to be facing inferior goaltending and lesser caliber D-men. Bold 3: Ok, you are taking me literally. I don't mean that exactly 50% of the best players were playing oversees. In the 80's which is what I am talking about (not 90's), the best Soviet players who were considered power houses at the time were not playing in the NHL, and the influx of other European talent was not what it is now. Enough with the strawman's already, I am not saying that Gretzky was not good, how many times do I have to say he is the greatest player of all time? I am dissecting his goal scoring ability compared to Ovechkin's, and when you are comparing guys at that level, all these factors matter. Anything that favours Ovie you just dismiss, and for whatever reason you get so defensive about the 80's. A lot of posts for someone who doesn't care.

Look, if the conversation is best player ever, IMO there is no debate. Gretzky would be the all time points leader if he literally scored 0 goals. Guy is the G.O.A.T, no question.

Bold 1: You do remember that you quoted me to tell me that I was full of it, right? Not the other way around. But ok, sure you dont care. Bold 2: Again BS, stop back peddling. Maybe you didnt put a number next to their names, but its pretty clear by your quote below who you rank higher. Sorry the facts that the majority are presenting in this thread are pissing you off.

BS and you know it. Why dont you actually make a point. I broke down their stats season by season, and shocker, you countered with nothing because you have nothing to counter with.

I'm pointing out facts, statistically it was the easiest season to score ever. No other NHL season ever has the average GPG been above 4. I also said like 3 times that the 81-82 season was the best ever season by a player, I'm not taking away from Gretzky. Look I get it, your mind is made up and it doesnt matter what stats or proof anyone shows. My guess is that you won't even consider Ovie being a better goal scorer the Gretzky. Sorry man, but I proved you wrong.

When/If Ovie breaks the record will you change your stance?

The argument is not "who had the greatest single goal scoring season of all time", if it was no question that Gretzky's 81/82 or 83/84 seasons are at the top, but that is not the question. The question is who is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Now I already said that I pick Lemieux #1 (which now I am second guessing after all the stats I pulled), but your biggest source of contention appears to be me putting Ovie above Gretzky, you want me to explain my logic, here it is: Goals Per Game Ovie - 0.612, Gretzky - 0.601. Ovie in his career scored more goals per game then Gretzky. League Averages During Gretzky's career the mean for GPG in a season was 3.50. During Ovie's career it was/is 2.85. Despite Ovie playing in an era where goal scoring was down 0.65 GPG, Ovie still managed to outscore Gretzky per game. Leading the league in scoring Gretzky led the league in goals 5 times in his career Ovie has led the league in goals 8 times and counting. Again, I admit Gretzky had a two seasons where he dominated (81/82 & 83/84) those are the two best goal scoring season of all time, but as far as who was the stronger goal scoring threat throughout their career, its not even close. 8 Richard trophies is pretty damn impressive and IMO puts Ovie above Gretzky. In Response to your "The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did." Comment Sure, Ovie never outscored his peers by "25 or 30 goals", but come on thats a silly thing to say in this era and you know it. Its not possible to do that when the best goal scorer in the world is scoring in the 50's. Do you really expect #2 to be in the 20's? More goals being scored opens the league up to these types of numbers. Its similar to what the NFL is seeing now with TD's and Passing Yards. The only thing you can look at is percentages, here they are as I did a deep dive: Lets look at each season each respective player won the goal scoring title and how close #2 was: 81-82 - Gretzky scored 92 - #2 scored 64 --- 44% better then #2 82-83 - Gretzky scored 71 - #2 scored 66 --- 8% better then #2 83-84 - Gretzky scored 87 - #2 scored 56 ----55% better then #2 84-85 - Gretzky scored 73 - #2 scored 71 --- 3% better then #2 86-87 - Gretzky scored 62 - #2 scored 58 ---- 7% better then #2 07-08 - Ovie scored 65 - #2 scored 52 --- 25% better then #2 08-09 - Ovie scored 56 - #2 scored 46 --- 22% better then #2 12-13 - Ovie scored 32 - #2 scored 29 --- 10% better then #2 13-14 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 43 --- 19% better then #2 14-15 - Ovie scored 53 - #2 scored 43 --- 23% better then #2 15-16 - Ovie scored 50 - #2 scored 46 --- 9% better then #2 17-18 - Ovie scored 49 - #2 scored 44 --- 11% better then #2 18-19 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 50 --- 1% better then #2 Ovie actually outscored his competition in the years he won the rocket by double digits 6 times. Gretzky did it twice. This dominance you speak of only happened twice, by reading your post you would think he did this every year. Again, no doubt that '81-82 & '83-84 are the best single seasons a player has ever had in terms of scoring goals, but Ovie has dominated for a MUCH longer duration the Gretzky winning scoring titles for over 11 years. Gretzky did most of his damage in a much shorter period of time as it was all in 6 seasons. Other Factors Gretzky in the early part of his career ONLY played against the best North American players in the world. Ovie throughout his career has played against the very best the entire world has had to offer, not half. Ovie outperformed Gretzky statistically against stronger competition. If you remove every non North American player ever (for conversation sake pretending Ovie was a NA player), I think Ovie does start to score at the level Gretzky did, just like when the rest of the world came into the NHL, Gretzky's dominance diminished. Whats even more impressive, Ovie is winning scoring titles in his 30's, Gretzky never won a single title after he was 26. Both are great, I'm not trying to tear Gretzky down. We're comparing the best of the best here. But statistically all indicators point towards Ovie being the better goal scorer. Gretzky just had the best single season ever which is appearing to cloud peoples judgement. I will say this though, after reviewing Gretzky's stats so closely, I do switch him and Bure. But ya, I'm full of it.

He did, but he also scored 92 goals in 81/82 which was a season where teams were scoring 4.01 GPG which is the highest scoring season in NHL history. Literally, this was the easiest season to score ever. Dont get me wrong, I put him #4 on my list, he's amazing and the greatest player ever, but you can't just judge Gretzky based on his totals given the era his peak was in. https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html *edit*

I see what you are saying, but just looking at totals is more of a reflection of longevity then ability to score.

You do realize that McDavid also got 5 points.

Not sure what the return is, but the TSN trade tracker just put it up there for TBD.

You get traded to a contender? Not sure that is a punishment lol.

Is it fair for me to assume this is Jonas lol?

Press conferences are simply about PR, I have never really cared about what a GM says during one and I likely never will. I never understood why some get all worked up from them.