Richdg

That is below average size. Also there is no way in the world that Helm is 6ft tall or 200 pounds. He is about 5-10 and 180. The RW's have increased his size over the last 2 years. Guys don't grow in the mid/late 20's. Helm does check, but there is no weight or force behind it. People fear his speed not the impact that he brings.

Glad someone brought up Frk. He is in his 3rd year pro. He finally was able to stay in GR full time this year. Players develop at different rates. If we go back to the loaded 2013 draft, Mantha was picked 20th. 1 guy that was drafted between 21 and 30 has outperformed him so far: Barakosky with the Caps. Several guys taken ahead of him are equal or behind mantha in development: Nurse, Morin, Morrissey, Pulok, Muller, and Rychel. Those guys make up 16 out of the 30 players taken in the 1st round. In other words to date Mantha is about average in his development. 14 guys ahead of him (13 of which were drafted before him) and 15 guys equal or behind him. Mantha's development is normal. Larkin is the exception. Mantha's path is not different thatn the path taken by Abby, Sheahan, Smith, and Scvechnikov.

BTW this season Mantha has played 73 pro games between the Grifs regular season, playoffs, and the RW's. In those 73 games he has scored 26 goals. That is a very good season. Not a great season. How many players for us have scored 26 goals this season? If that is what he does for us on average for his career we have a long term solution on the top line.

Blues are cap strapped-or will be very soon and the Isles still have an image problem. Mitch is one of those guys that is just a bit to small and a bit to slow. Too good for the AHL not good enough for the NHL.

The point is/was that Helm is redundant. We have small fast good checkers. We need more big strong gritty checkers. Guys like Martin. Or Wilson or Abby etc....

There is no reason to be. Year one with a broken leg he scored 13. Not great but no terrible. Tatar scored 16 his first full season in GR. Year 2 he has scored 23 in regular season games between GR and Detroit with 3 in 3 PO games. That is getting close to 30 for the year.

I am shocked to see gambling is going on here............

Not true at all. Nyquist's best season in GR was 23 goals. Tatar's was 24. Mantha is 21. Nyquist was older when he did it as well after playing in college for 3 years. Yes age and maturity makes a big difference. Abby had 24 his best year in GR. Jurco, Sheahan, and Helm never broke 20 goals. So at the same level they are producing at the same rate. The big difference is all of those guys were /are max'd out in their development. Mantha is not.

Right now we have: Glendening C, Sheahan C, Jurco RW/LW, Lil Bert LW/RW, Natasiak RW, maybe Miller, with Person and Turgeron coming. All are 3rd/4th line types. All are good skaters and checkers. None of them is very physical. That is 8 already here or will be real soon. Then maybe Abby moves down to the checking line like he did in the PO's. He is the only one that plays physical. 1-2 more are needed that do. Yes using Helm in the top 6 is/was dumb. He isn't a scorer. Why we used in that way speaks to a lack of top end talent in the top 6.

Not sure what you are talking about???? Many of us debate without taking any offense to things, please join us. We have guys like Helm on the team and in the minors. We don't have many/any rugged wingers in the system. That is the big difference IMHO. You need both and would never say otherwise. Vs TB it was shown once again how important a good rugged checking line is.

I am and have been a fan of Mantha's from the beginning. I spent months before the draft hoping we would draft him. That being said he is a very good prospect. Nothing more at this time. Until he proves he can score in the NHL he will remain a prospect. There is however only 1 way for him to prove he is a NHL caliber player: Play NHL games. Sending him down when he was clearly helping us was a mistake. Our PP was much better with him on it. Then he goes down and we went 1 for 24 on the PP in the PO's. Now maybe we still struggle, maybe not. But to use the same guys that have sucked on the PP all year in the PO's and expect a different result is stupid. Plain and simple, Holland/Blashill screwed up. Yes all prospects get overhyped before they actually play. Nature of the beast. Same is true with Larkin. We think/hope he will be a star someday, but as of now he is not. 2 years from now, maybe. The one thing that does bother me with the RW's and Mantha is the negative comments in the press about him that haven't been said about others. The "spare forward" comment by Holland was flat out stupid. Jimmy D last year same thing. This hasn't happened with Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulk, etc... Why are they doing this with Mantha? Maybe he is a kid that thrives on confrontation? Don't know. But some of this is bad management.

They are different players. Larkin is a natural C and passing nis very much part of his game and job description. Mantha is a natural winger/sniper and shooting is his game. if a couple of years down the road Mantha has a 35 G 60 point season and Larkin has a 20 g 60 point season, which one had a great year vs an average one? Most would answer Mantha had the great one and Larkin had an average one. C's should have more points being the play maker. But that is down the road a few years.

Helm is not better than Martin. They are different style players, but for 3 million per year Martin would help us more than Helm will or has. Others that could help that are UFA's: Perron Stewart Next some RFA's that might be had due to teams having to resign others.....

We have talked about the D a ton on here. Yes it HAS TO IMPROVE! For that to happen we need to add talent. That talent has to be ready to play now. But moving on the F's. Holland has admitted we need to get bigger and tougher at F. Most if not all of us agree with that. We have guys that can skate, shoot, puck handle and yes score. All of which is easier if they have more room on the ice and have some protection. Yes Stamkos is the sexy choice. But does he make us bigger and tougher to play against? No. He is also going to be really really can't stress this enough, expensive. Think 10+ million per year cap hit. Plus he is going to Tor. So what is out there that "makes us bigger and gritter"? Lucic is the fast answer. Is he going to get 6 million per? If so, move on. If he is closer to 5, then yes go after him. But there are others. One of my fav's is Windsor native Matt Martin. He is a UFA-from the area, made 1 million last year and is a good enough skater that he does play with the Isles top line when they shorten the bench. He is only 26 IIRC. Good for 8-10 goals per year. Now some others.......

Since you brought it up, Larkin had...... 2 goals in his first 10 games. Same as Mantha. Larkin did have 5 assists to Mantha 1.

The need for D is now, which is the problem and why the draft isn't the solution. Dmen in general take longer to develop. A F may be ready in 2-3 years but most Dmen take longer 3-5 years. Sproul and Oullett are classic examples. Both were highly rated, drafted in the second round. That was 4 years ago and neither is ready. Most also expect them to develop some day. I prefer F's in the draft and trade for the D. Its not like we are filled with great F's yet. We still have the need for 2-3 more high end F's.

Now that the U18 games are done there is movement in the rankings. The top Dmen are now trending out of the top 5 on some sites. Brown and Jones are trending up.

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/2016/4/27/11518476/bob-mckenzie-2016-nhl-draft-pre-lottery-top-15-rankings-and-reaction Interesting that McKenzie doesn't have Gauthier in the top 15.

The only thing smith and I disagree with is what is the best way to fix our D. We both agree it needs to be improved. Greatly improved is what is needed.

Just to compare. Nyquist first trip up was in 11/12. He played 18 games and scored 1 goal. Tatar first trip up was 10/11. He played 9 games and scored 1 goal. Datsyuk's first year was 01/02. He played 70 games and had 11 goals. Abby played 54 games over three seasons: 07-10. He scored 3 goals over that stretch. Mantha's 2 goals in 10 games is 16 per 80 games. Those are decent numbers for a rookie that wasn't a top 5 pick.

pure craziness. he was good. he wasn't great.

If that is what you want, I would rather have the next Probert than the next Klima. Just go watch any online Hitman games. It doesn't take long to stand out.

Now go watch his tape. Bean is constantly getting caught up ice and out of position. yes he creates offense, but his D creates as much O for the other team as he does for his own. All this being said, 1. I think he is gone 2. I am starting to think Jones will be the pick. There has been a move by the RW's the last few years to bring in more of the talent that the state of Michigan produces. Jones at 16 is a great solid pick. He should also be in the NHL faster than Bean is.

There are many differences between Pulk and mantha. The only thing Pulk brings is a great shot. He isn't big, or fast, or very skilled. He is a great shooter. That is easy to stop. Mantha brings much more than Pulk and more than most of our F's. He just needs game time. In a couple of years he will be better than Nyquist because he does so many things that Nyquist can't do.

Ditto. On all of it....