Richdg

Tootoo has also been linked to Florida a week or so ago. Now I like Tootoo but he is one of 2 moveable pieces-the other is Quincy. Moving him for say a 5th round pick opens up about 2.1 million in cap space. meaning we can recall Nyquist. Cup winning move? No. but we have to start somewhere. Just to finish my thought. The Oilers are really hurting on the blueline and have enough cap space to take a guy like Quincy. If they wanted him I would try to get the rights to John McCarron. why? 1. saves 3.75 million on our cap. 2. McCarron is a 6-2/225 Rh shooting RW and a Detroit native. he is currently playing for Cornell and will not be available to us until after the trade deadline-no cap. 3. will fill a 3/4 line banger role and has the ability to score 10-15 goals per year. 4. Quincy is a UFA after this season and we get something for him vs just letting him walk. if we are able to move Tootoo and Quincy we will have about 4 million left under the cap after recalling 2 guys from GR and room to make other moves.

Thing is, some of those guys you mentioned could step on the ice right now and be better than some of our current waste. anyone not think Federov is a better player today than Sammy? or Shanny still better than Cleary? I do. Those guys started with a much higher talent level than Sammy/Cleary.

His comments are spot on of course. but is babcock the guy on the ice? no. All of the things he talked about have to be done by the players. if the players will not or can not do those things, then they need to be replaced. These things-hard on the puck and shoot more are things we have all talked about for years. But the question is, we all have been asking for these things and the players-at forward are the same. They can't do what we all want. Sammy and franzen are not going to become physical players at their advanced ages. That is on Holland. he has done a great job at rebuilding our D and developing great depth at D and G. But our forward group is garbage and has been for several years. Young guys have not been developed and we have not made trades/signed UFA's to fill the void. This is not on babcock. he is merely playing the hand he was given.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if he was waived, can we not spread his remaining salary over this year and next?

This is the problem with Holland's patch and plug approach the last couple of years. far to many old guys making far to much money. we can't go out and add quality pieces because we have no cap room. We can't even fire guys that deserve it-doesn't create cap room. Hell we can't even call up a Nyquist and his 950k salary right now because we have no cap room. Most teams can live with 1 or 2 bad contracts but we have about 8! alfie, bert, Sammy, cleary, tootoo, eaves, Quincey, Gus.......... that is a lot of guys and a lot of money for almost zero production. if Weiss doesn't get his butt in gear soon add him to the list. Even without him, that is nearly 20 million on bad deals.

Yes. if he doesn't get claimed we can send him to GR and save a little money. We need to free up about 700K to be able to recall Nyquist. According to capgeek we have about 250K available right now. Nyquist makes 950,000. If nothing else it gets a usable player on the roster.

This team is not going to make another cup run without some serious changes/updates. but I understand what you are trying to say. The only thing we can do with Sammy is cut him, which needs to be done asap.

IIRC Nyquist is also hurt atm. So no help from the farm.

When it comes t lines I tend to give coaches the benefit of the doubt. They are there everyday and know much better than we do what guys work well together and what not.

One of the risks/problems with youth is, they tend to be very weak defensively. How many times have we all heard 'defense wins championships"? Hundreds of times in every sport. Well, that is because it is true. yes winning a game 1-0 can be boring. but it is better than losing a game 7-6. Look at the Aves and Oilers right now. Both are filled with top level young talent. one-the Aves are winning and the Oilers are sucking big time. Why? The Aves are playing d. D is the reason why Cleary was brought back. Has a lot to do with Alfie being here. Also explains why Tatar sat the first part of the season. It has been report that is why Weiss is struggling-he was told to focus on D first and let the O come as it may. Those of us old enough to remember, think back to the late 80's and early 90's. The RW's were filled with top flight young talent, but we didn't win anything. it wasn't until the team 1. learned to play D and 2. matured, that we finally started to win.

yes we have a surplus, but Moulson is a proven 30-35 goals per year guy. No I am not familiar with his style of play. is he just a shooter or can he skate, play d, handle the rough stuff etc.... I have no idea. But he can score and has done so while playing with the Isles-not a great team.

You have to make the PO to have a bad or good PO run. Our O is going to cause us to miss the PO soon. BTW just for reference, Ryan has 10 goals in 26 PO games which is 38%. Z is at 45% and datsyuk is at 27%, so yes he is a PO performer for his career. Vanek is at 42%. Both would make us better overnight and we had the chance to get both. Yes. babs can mix and match until he is blue in the face. but the O will not get better until we have better players. Holland that is on you.

A couple of things... 1. most expected a slower start for Weiss while he adjusts to the new team, system, and line mates. 2. is he 100% recovered from his wrist injury? 3. Weiss is playing with worse linemates here than what he had in Florida. Their top line was/is pretty good were as our second sucks. Versteeg is better than everyone we have on lines 2-4.

playing prospects is based on several things of course. do you have a team that is capable of competing for the SC? if so, then you take a far more cautious approach. if you are feeding at the bottom of the league then what do you have to lose? nothing. Play the cheap young guys. But it is a mixed bag. TB is ahead of us, sens behind us. Sharks lead their conference but the stars are bringing up the rear. Just young is not a key to success.

There are many things we don't know. for example, maybe moulson told the isles he wasn't going to resign. if that is the case, then moving him makes sense. at the same time, maybe the isles have already talked to vanek and he is willing to resign. if either or both are true, this is a great trade for the isles.

Lol, but lets think out loud..... Bert-dat-vanek Abby-Z-Ryan who cares about the other 2 lines......

True we have no cap room today, but what about last summer? before we pissed away 5.5 million of Alfie, 5 million on Weiss, and didn't use our second buyout on say Franzen? that is 15 million right there! Not to mention the 1.75 million on cleary. we could have traded for both Ryan and vanek and had to good scoring lines! but no......

Interesting. Both players are UFA's. Throwing in the 14' 1st and 15' 2nd is the risk. If the isles resign him it is a major upgrade. Moulson is a good 30 goal per year guy, but vanek is a 40+ goal per year guy. This trade is very similar to our deal to get Shanny many years ago. primeau was a good 30 guy guy but Shanny was a 40+ goal guy and a leader.

Now we all have come up with hundreds of reasons of why we are were we are, that is the easy part. The hard part is what to do about it? We can't just sit by and "wait for the young guys'. Hell we are not using the 2 that are ready now. tatar and nyquist should be playing every damn game. if that means we cut a Sammy then do it! Sheahan and Jurco should be ready by the end of the year as well. but none of those 4 guys is going to make a major impact on our O. can they help? yes. But none of them are 60+ point 30+ goal guys. they don't do it in the minors, so they sure as heck are going to do it at a higher level. The only forward in our entire system that looks like future star on O is Mantha, but it will take him 3-4 years to be at that level. This means we have to go out and make trades and sign UFA's. There is no other way to do it right now. maybe 3 years from now we will have more talent/potential stars in our system. But we can't wait 3 years. if we do we will become a sub .500 team and miss the PO's several times in a row. Now trades require payment. You don't go out and pick up 30+ goal scorers for free. we can't pass on guys like Ryan when the chance is there. Be 100% honest, which would be better for us right now? tatar, nyquist, and the 2014 1st or Ryan? How about tatar, nyquist and a 2nd or Vanek? Point is we can come up with lots of names, and we need to make moves.

The part wonder about is why do we have to play Z and Dat on the same line. For several years we have been looking for a second line C. To date, no luck. We have to great C's. Let them play. if Weiss is able to turn things around we could have 3. Going 3 or 4 deep with Dat, Z, Weiss, and Helm would be an awesome C lineup. How about some wingers to go with them?

For many years the Wings could out skate 99% of all the other NHL teams. That is not true anymore. We just got out skated/out hustled by the Rangers tonight. Well......

Ummm yes. 15 years ago we drafted and developed Z and dat, which I said. there has been nothing since. A bunch of 3rd line role player types. That is a long long time between stars. yes tatar is different than Nyquist. but not much and I don't expect much from him long term. 4 full seasons in the minors at GR and never scored more than 24 goals in a season. 30 games with the Wings to date and he has scored 5 goals. Now to be fair, he has never played 20+ games in a row which would help. I have said many times I see tatar and Nyquist as 40 point per year guys. tatar a few more goals and Nyquist a few more assists, and yes, both should be playing every game to prove one way or the other what type of players they are.

Some of this was to be expected. Like I asked earlier, when was the last time we developed a star forward? But to answer that, what is the definition of "star"? A 40 point per year or 50 point per year guy is not a star to me. I look at "stars" as 60+ point guys with 30+ goals per year. We haven't developed one of those in 15 years now. I don't see one coming soon either. maybe mantha (I believe he will be) but he is also 2+ years away from making the Wings and will need a season or 2 to blossom then. So if we haven't been developing star players internally, have we been trading for them or signing them as UFA's? no. All of which brings us back to where we are today. yes all GM's make mistakes when deciding which players to keep vs let walk. Franzen over Hossa was a big one. yes it was 5 years ago and there has been ample time to make up for that error. yes we missed on parise and in another year or 2 we will be glad we did. maybe. fact is star players make star player money. We don't seem to be willing to spend it. last year was a good example of this. We signed 3 role players for 6 million per year. How has that worked out? Sammy-wish he was gone, brunner-bailed on us after 1 season, and tootoo-likeable guy but doesn't offer much. This past off season we could have traded for a proven 30+ goal scorer-Ryan, but we decided not to. even though he is young, RHed, signed for another year after this one and costs less per year than Cleary, Alfie, Tatar, and Nyquist combined. Not to mention he is out scoring all 4 this year. next summer we have a ton of money coming off the cap. anyone care to make a wager on if we sign Vanek or someone like that? it will cost 8 million per year to do it, so I bet we pass. Now some on here are hoping and begging for tatar, nyquist, and helm to get back, and expect that to fix our offense. Sorry but it will not. tatar and nyquist are more of the same. Speedy guys yes. Puck movers yes. but these are not guys that are going to drive through the Dman and burry the puck in the net on a regular basis. it will be more of the same. Skate around and shoot the puck from 30+ feet away. maybe I should write 10 meters.... helm is not an offensive player. Awesome defensive forward yes, but he is not a goal scorer. None of these three are going to stand in the crease or block out the G and pick up the rebounds, which is a big part of our problem. yes we were spoiled having Homer all of those years. One of the best front of the net guys ever. No one guy is going to do what he did. But that doesn't mean we don't try to find those guys. The issue is, most of the guys that do that also drop the gloves from time to time, and that is something that the brain trust refuses to acquire.

None of those guys are here yet, thus why we are in the spot we are. The chances that all of them turn out is very small. maybe 1 or 2 will turn out into a star, but that is about it. Most will never be anything more than role players and career AHL types.

This has been a long time coming and isn't going to change for a couple of more years. We have been bleeding high end talent for years. We haven't drafted well at the forward spot. The last high end talent we developed was Z and datsyuk. You don't lose high end talent like Shanny, Yzerman, Hull, Federov, Hosa, etc.... and replace them with journeyman type players and maintain high end results. Now what can be done with what we have? Not much. We keep running out the same guys year after year after year and expect different results. Not everyone can play at a high level until they are 40. Those that haven't been at a high level are not going to find it late in their careers. The team is also mismatched in talent. The young D men are all bigger types who skate well and are good at shooting the puck into the O zone. But most of the talent up front is still better at possessing the puck. Yes this is frustrating, but it will take time before things get better.