kickazz

Your argument is completely in hindsight. But the truth and the fact of the matter is the Lindsay, Delvecchio, Adel and Sawchuck DID NOT immediately have their numbers retired. All of their numbers were retired 30-40 years after they stopped playing the game. ONLY Howe, Yzerman and Lidstrom were retired immediately the season after the stopped playing. Nobody is arguing whether or not these players were legends. They were. But "discussion" or "time" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a number will be retired. It's an inherently flawed argument and I've already showed in two posts that there is no correlation. Now if someone has better points as to why Fedorov, Dats, Z or Osgood shpuldn't be retired. By all means.

I think Kronwall will have a better year. From the looks of it he primarily played injured last year. I saw the guy limping in Lifetime Fitness in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan during the season. Zetterberg will probably start off fine the first 40 games as usual and hit a wall. Honestly it all depends on his usage. If they continue to use him 19-20 minutes a night the coaching staff should definitely be criticized. Play the guy 15 minutes a night and he'll likely last the entire season.

Yeah I guess if we're talking physical "on ice" talent then for sure Datsyuk, Fedorov are top and Lidstrom would fall off my list too. Physical on ice talent doesn't equate to best player though. I regard Datsyuk as having more talent and being more skilled than Sidney Crosby but I think Crosby is a better individual hockey player overall. Based on this I guess my list would probably be. 1. Howe 2. Fedorov 3. Datsyuk 4. Yzerman 5. Zetterberg I still have Howe on my list. Being ambidextrous is an automatic top physical talent that no one on that list ever had. I bring in Zetterberg on the list (and remove Shanny) because he was similar to Fedorov in that he could play from any corner on ice whether center or left wing or right wing, quarterback the PP. An excellent slapshot although not the hardest. He also had a wicked backhand. And I don't need to explain why Datsyuk makes the list

I hope you're a good GM kliq

Exactly why I changed my mind over the years. Fedorov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are top in almost all scoring categories for the entire Red Wings franchise and have surpassed Ted Lindsay. Trying to keep the whole "well Feds and Dats left" emotions out of it. They are in the category of Red Wing legends, their numbers speak for themselves. Here's another cool stat. This is from before the last season started. Zetterberg is actually only one goal behind Shanny with 62 and Datsyuk ended his career with 51.

The other point I'll make is this. Retiring Ted Lindsay, Alex Delvecchio Sid Abel and Sawchuk's numbers were also in discussions. Only Howe, Yzerman and Lidstrom were players whose numbers were immediately retired. Lindsay and Delvecchio had their numbers retired in 1991 Sawchuck was retired in 1994 Abel in 1995 Discussing is completely unrelated to likelihood of retirement. Sid Abel retired from the game in 1954 and his number wasn't retired till 40 years after that.

Years ago people were doubting that Datsyuk would even get into the hall of fame. Now I'd say he's a guaranteed first ballot HOFamer. In 2004 almost 100% of the people would have said no to Fedorov's number being retired. Now you have Ken Holland making quotes like these “[Red Wings VP] Jimmy Devellano, Mr. and Mrs. Ilitch, at the appropriate time I’ll weigh in … we’ll talk about whether or not his number should be retired. Certainly, with him going into the Hall of Fame, it’s a great accomplishment. Worth serious consideration,” said Holland on Thursday. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/red-wings-warming-to-sergei-fedorov-s-number-retirement-142300539.html

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=20010705&id=joZIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cnADAAAAIBAJ&pg=4863,2931656&hl=en http://www.chron.com/sports/aeros/article/After-Hasek-trade-Osgood-wants-out-of-Detroit-2030123.php The team could have traded one of Legace or Osgood but Osgood wanted out because he wanted to be number 1. He could have sucked it up and played alongside Hasek if he truly wanted to be a Red Wing. "I just want it (a trade) to happen soon," Osgood said Tuesday. "I know I'm going to be traded. ... It's obvious I'm not going to be the No. 1 (goalie). It would serve no purpose (to come to camp). Hopefully, they will just get it done quickly." If anything I feel like Jimmy Howard is handling the situation with Petr Mrazek better than Osgood did when Hasek came in. You might want to blame Holland for it because I know you're not a Holland fan, but let's be real about the issues here. If a player wants to play for a team, he'll do whatever he can to try and stay. Clearly Osgood was pissed off about the situation and Fedorov moved on because he wanted to move on.

A lot of those could be said about Yzerman though. At least when comparing to Fedorov. Although I'm not sure who had a harder shot between the two but Yzerman was pretty small, not really a flashy playerw with his hands like Fedorov or Datsyuk. Definitely not one of the faster skaters either.

Yeaa but unofficial is meh. If those guys meant it they should have voted him for Ted Lindsay award at the end of the year. I see what you're saying though btw.

For the people who don't think #13 and #40. How come? Datsyuk never won the Ted Lindsay award which is voted best player by the NHL players. Only Fedorov won that on the list. Also I can say with guarantee that if #13 is retired, then #40 will be. They wouldn't retire one without the other. Imo it's either both or neither.

I agree. I think with as much time that has passed a lot of people have forgotten just how good Fedorov was. Imo Feds is the most complete player I've ever seen play the game. Wicked slap shot, extremely powerful wrist shot. Dangles, defensive, faceoffs, fastest skater in the world. I mean there's nothing I haven't seen him do. The guy even fought on (very extremely) rare occasions lol. It wasn't a part of his game but this one is pretty nice.

I don't get what the point of discussion here is. Stamkos wasn't coming here regardless. He didn't even show interest to us or anyone else. The guy wants a Stanley cup not money. He could have easily made more in Toronto with endorsement deals. Best shot of a cup for him is Tampa. Truthfully I think we can all agree he made the smartest decision.

How. Just so you know. It takes two to tango. If Fedorov really wanted to stay, he could have. Just like Stamkos did for less. Yeah with endorsement deals in Toronto, Stamkos would have made more than he is in Tampa even without their tax rate. But he chose to stay. I'm not saying Feds shouldn't be retired but I am saying that you're trying to paint a picture of Fedorov being the cornered into not re-signing (as if he can't make his own decisions lol) with Detroit when he had the damn right to stay here if he wanted to.

It's a legitimate option because Z and D played entire careers as Red Wings while Feds and Osgood did not. It's not singling them out, it's a categorical option. Some people value whether or not a player dedicated his entire career to the franchise.

Here's some more information that might help in voting. Since this is all about being a Red Wing I'll also provide top 10 leaders for some stats ALL TIME as a Red Wing in season. All Time Leaders in TOTAL POINTS- 1. Gordie Howe 2. Steve Yzerman 3. Alex Delvecchio 4. Nicklas Lidstrom 5. Sergei Fedorov 6. Pavel Datsyuk 7. Henrik Zetterberg 8. Norm Ullman 9. Ted Lindsay 10. Brenden Shanahan All time total GOALS 1. Gordie Howe 2. Steve Yzerman 3. Alex Delvecchio 4. Sergei Fedorov 5. Ted Lindsay 6. Norm Ullman 7. Pavel Datsyuk 8. Henrik Zetterberg 9. Brenden Shanahan 10. John Ogrodnick All time total ASSISTS 1. Steve Yzerman 2. Gordie Howe 3. Nicklas Lidstrom 4. Alex Delvecchio 5. Pavel Datsyuk 6. Sergei Fedorov 7. Henrik Zetterberg 8. Norm Ullman 9. Ted Lindsay 10. Reed Larson Chris Osgood is #2 in all time Wins list as a Red Wing behind Terry Sawchuck. It's hard to show SV% and GAA since the sample size of games played sort of skews the percentages. Unless someone has a way to avoid all that.

I'm surprised Lidstrom doesn't make your list.

Change professions bro its not worth it.

But you want Fedorov's number retired? Come on lol. I think 91 should be and if 13 is so should 40. Otherwise only 91 and neither 13 nor 40. Or none of them.

I think Quick is going to benefit greatly from it and so will Mrazek. Bishop might get screwed actually. Also Alex Ovechkin will break Gretzky's goal scoring record

<3 ya Dats. Been watching his highlights the past couple of days actually. Been pretty down about it - even though thought I was over it.

Maybe I just wanted a different direction for the team and felt like re-signing Helm, Miller and then signing Ott was "meh guess you're not changing much". I like the Vanek signing. I like the Nielsen signing (although term is also too much but we did need a center), so it's justifiable in a sense.

The difference between Goose and Helm is that Helm turns 30 sometime this season and Goose was turning 26 entering into his prime. I honestly would probably be calling this an excellent deal if Helm was 25 rather than 29. I'm looking at this situation in it's entire scope. I'll reiterate some points. 1. We have a log jam of NHL forwards. 2. We have a log jam of AHL forwards or extras trying to become NHL forwards (Mantha, AA, Jurco, Pulk, Bert, Callahan) 3. 5 years. This contract runs till he's 34. If 29 year old Helm's best is 33 points what will 32 y/o Helm be? 33? 34? 4. His best production was when he was 24 years old. His next best production was in 2015 where he thrived as Datsyuk's wing (Tatar - Datsyuk - Helm line). Can he repeat the production without Pav? I'm not saying he won't but it's something to think about. 5. Injury history. It's pretty bad. Doesn't mean it will happen again, doesn't mean it won't either. These things should be considered when making 5 year deals imo. 6. Was it worth paying $3.85 million when perhaps AA could take the role? AA doesn't have the same grit but he can probably provide the same duties on the third line and on the PK. We also have Nielsen now so the PK will primarily be his to handle. 7. Perhaps it is Helms market value. Maybe you guys are right. But does that mean management should pay it? I mean, it's not like it's Datsyuk hitting UFA. If that was the case, we do whatever we could to retain him. But was their hand really forced here? I don't think so. I just don't see this contract working out in our favor. I hope I'm wrong though. And it all depends on if he has a NTC or NMC. If there's a NMC then lol.

How many 3Cs in the league are getting paid $3.85 million for 5 years? I'm curious. BTW Helm hasn't consistently played 3C in almost 3 years. Lastly, I don't think Helm brings anything to the table a guy like AA can't. Sure Helm might be a better Pker, might be better on the faceoff (which he never takes because he doesn't play center anymore while AA actually will). But just because he might be better currently in those departments doesn't mean you sign the guy for next 5 years till hes 35 years old. It's a bad contract. There's not a single way to justify the term nor the dollars. The more I think about it the more I think Andreas Athanesiou should have been handed the "Helm reigns" this season. Kills penalties, is a drafted centerman, is fast a the dog from Bolt 3D. Has hands. Is actually a better scorer than Helm is. Helm has the grit on AA but if that's all about there is to it then that's not a convincing reason to keep him. I've been watching some Traverse City videos btw (development camp) and Bertuzzi should be in for Miller lol. I hope he snatches an NHL spot this year. And Givani Smith is pretty damn good too. The guy is going to be the Red Wings version of Wayne Simmonds- mark it. And I never overhype prospects but I am certainly looking forward to Smith in a couple of years.

I think best Red Wing. So players who played a significant amount of time here. How would your overall list look?