kickazz

Say that to the plethora of fans and members on the Red Wings organization that disagree with you.

Put it in perspective. If you started playing with the Wings as a 21 or 22 year old would you feel comfortable wearing #91? Without being an established player it would take a lot of guts to try to have that number on your back in the Joe. Now, if John Tavares miraculously got traded here (just a scenario) then I can see him trying to wear the #91. Pretty sure he'd pull it off and be accepted as well. But yea we haven't really gotten star players here since Datsyuk and Z came into the league. Both of whom pick other numbers. Franzen was #39 and when Hasek came back he just switched the digits to #93. Nothing else has really happened. Nyquist took #14 which belong to Shanny. Shanny was a pretty epic player in this organization as well. It's too early to wonder why no one has worn #91 or #30. Personally I feel like any number in the 90s is an oddball number to pick, rarely do we see players go that high. http://www.sihrhockey.org/public_nhl_jersey_numbers.cfm?num=30&t=0 ^ Cool website if you want to look at jersey history.

. Aye we lost experience overall. I was hoping they would hire an assistant with some NHL exp to back Blash alongside Granato. Though i am pleased that we keep Granato at the very least.

One of the most experienced NHL coaching staff to the least experienced NHL coaching staff. All in a matter of one month. Here's to good fortune. Get 'em Blash.

Agreed. The organization is pretty stringent in the process. We've had so much success and so many great players, it's incredibly hard. But yeah Datsyuk and both Z in my opinion have the best shot at the moment. Aye now that post ^ shows an end. Not one with paragraphs. This may be the most generic post I have ever seen on these forums. Even for a drunk guy.

2. You would if you want to claim that 3 cups is a weaker argument than anything else. Otherwise anything else is a bigger assumption than "what is". The "if" doesn't mean much because well.. it's an "if". The world of debate negates those words. 4. The only thing Datsyuk brings that is unique is his puck handling, but a lot of players now can do that, such as Patrick Kane. Fans and the NHL operations actually do vote quiet a bit for defensive forwards. Look at Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kesler and Zetterberg. All these players have been elected into all star games. Toews was elected by fan vote. None of these are outliers these are all former Selke finalists or winners. Also, the injuries thing is just an excuse. If he's injured for (5 years like you listed) in a row and had just 2 or 3 good years of hockey, I don't see how that's helping his "generational" player case. Patrick Kane played in less games than Datsyuk this year and was elected to play in the all-star game. Plenty of injured players have been considered. Injury is just an excuse. Howard was elected but he was injured so had to be replaced. They announce these things and it's listed if you look at the database. 5. 38 year old putting as many points up as those is a bigger feat (even if it's not as high as the leagues highest) than a player than didn't play a full season due to age or injuries. The latter is based on assumption that "what if he played those many games" PPG can have it's weak sides. Zetterberg was a PPG player for like the first 50 something games then dropped terribly the last 30 games. 6. I end when you end.

2. How do we assume this without factual evidence? The only fact we have is each person up there has 3 cups. Nothing less. Anyways the original point I made was that the bar would be set lower if someone with less than 3 cups was retired. And you can't use the "Maltby, Draper or McCarty" argument because they don't have the other "Categories" I listed. Remember the "cup" is just one category. This is a point of what the standard is set to on paper. On paper, there are minimum 3 cups earn by each up on the rafters. Now, if someone with 2 cups ended up having their jersey retired.. would that be blasphemous? No. It would just lower the bar is all. Which to be honest would get Pav in and also make Z's case even stronger. <-- which for me is a win win because I love both players. 3 cups - shoe-in. 2 cups = debate. If Pav won another cup, no one would in their right mind even question if he meets the "cup" category, because he would. That debate would be settled. And like I mentioned before, he has all the other cards lined up (loyalty, franchise numbers, fan/organization appreciation, generational). 4. A generational player would have a tremendous effect on the fans who would admire his skill. It may be a popularity contest but I don't see how that would stop him from being voted in. I mean if you look at the votes, he wasn't even close to being voted in. Ever. Believe it or not Sidney Crosby is one of the more disliked players amongst fans (overall), yet almost every year he makes the voting. I hate Crosby I think he's a whiner and subpar leader, yet I won't deny his pure talent. His one ice vision is second to none. No one can deny that. There are some outliers, like Girgensons yes. Additionally if you really want to dwell on this then lets set aside the top 5 starters aspect of the all star game since it's a "popularity contest". The rest of the squad isn't chosen by the fans. It's by the NHL operations. Now thenwhy is it that Datsyuk STILL didn't make the all-stars most of his career, even when the rest of the rosters aren't purely based off popularity amongst fans? Lastly, if it is so much harder to get into the all-star game now, (which it is), then why have Ovechkin, Chara, etc made it year in and year out? You can't make these excuses for just Pav when it obviously doesn't apply to a lot of players in this league. Most of the "top" superstars make it year in and year out. Ok lets even put the whole "all-star" game aside and talk about "NHL First All-Star team". Which is based off skills and performance and contributions. Datsyuk has never made it on there. Remember I'm playing devils advocate with you on the whole "generational" point. 5. I'm not so sure. Yzerman was a legend for almost 15 straight years. Datsyuk was a lethal player for about 5 straight years or so (2007-2012ish). But I still relate more Pav than Yzerman. Actually I probably loved watching Z more than both of them in his prime but that's just me. Yzerman was my idol growing up but over the years I've moved on and have loved the whole "euro twin" thing a lot more. Probably because these two players were 6th and 7th round players that were the most complete players in history. So my point is, I am a bigger euro twin fan now than I am an Yzerman fan like I used to be. But someone asks me "do you think #13 will be up there?" my response usually is "I really hope so, but to be honest, the guys up there right now have made it pretty hard for these guys". You mentioned Pavel's 2009 season, I'll add in the 2008 season because he did well that season as well. But that's the other point, he had 2 excellent seasons and he never reached that number again. In 2011 he played 70 games and scored 67 points. Now you're also saying that the other three (Lindsay, Abel, and Delv) aren't any more special than Pav. Actually, the fact of the matter is while Datsyuk produced well in 2 seasons, the guys, they consistently produced the amount of points they did. I think Lindsay even had a season where he produced close to 90 points well into his 30s. And I know for a fact that Delveccio had an 80+ points at the age of 38! Quiet a feat actually. 6. Actually I don't put too much stalk into Trophies I'm one of the few on here that thinks Zetterberg has a good chance of getting it retired even though he has only one trophy. But this STILL doesn't change my original point. That point being that the Red Wings have a high standard with multiple "categories", only one of which include the trophies. And currently, all members who have been retired have at least 3 cups. Anyone getting their jersey retired with less cups would set the "trophies category" bar to a lower point.

I hope you mean defenseman.

1. Because the thread is about retiring Fedorov's jersey and he's the central part of this discussion, Datsyuk and everyone else are being compared and/or considered to the topic at hand. 2. No. I am saying that 3 cups would solidify it and 2 cups only give him a "pretty good shot at it". No one else with less than 3 cups has ever been retired. So to think that someone with 2 cups will be retired is a weaker stance than to think someone with 3 will be. We have no reason to believe 2 cups will meet the quota. What we do know is that the people who have gotten it retired had at least 3 cups. This isn't a matter of how you or I "feel". It's a matter of what is. 3. He was chosen for 4 and did not play in 1 due to an injury. It was actually Henrik Zetterberg that gave Shanahan the text that he did not want to participate in the All-star game in 2011. He wasn't injured but opted out so he could take the all-star weekend off. 4. This goes back to the "was he really a generational player" discussion. If the starters are picked by the fans. Which they are. Then shouldn't Datsyuk have been picked almost every single time if he was truly generational? And what's even more surprising is that the Red Wings have one of the largest fan bases in the continent and Pav still didn't get enough votes to be a starter. Generational players should be shoe ins. Like Crosby was, like Jonathan Toews, or Evgeni Malkin. 5. It isn't nostalgia. I've been watching the Wings since the 80s and my father before me had the privilege of watching Mr. Hockey. Datsyuk is no where near the legend that those guys were. You could argue that it's because there's far too much competition now and it's easy to have your name shadowed. True. But it is what it is. I watched Yzerman literally be a legend for 15+ years. Can you imagine? 15 years of insane goal scoring and excellent leadership. Year in and year out. Datsyuk merely gained popularity around 2006/07 and his prime really lasted only 5 years after that. He still is the magic man, but I ask you to go look at games from 2008 or 2009 and compare it to now. The magic is not the same. I think you're making Pav out to be a bigger "legend" than he really is. Which is fine, I do too as I am a fan. But objectively speaking, he isn't the "legend" the guys on the rafters were. Entertaining yes. But THAT legendary? Not sure. 6. Just because we're looking at the matter objectively and putting aside our fan bias and thinking to ourselves "well maybe he doesn't meet the criteria" doesn't mean we are against him. It's not that black and white. Datsyuk is actually my favorite player. Both him and Zetterberg are. I like them both more than I loved Yzerman. But facts are facts the criteria and legendary status are incomparable between the 6 players up there and the 2 that are still down on the ice at the Joe. I knew Yzerman would be retired long before he turned 30. You just frickin knew it. He was such a damn good captain and tremendous goal scorer. When his defensive IQ picked up under Bowman it was even more amazing. With Pav, he's 36 and it's still like ... well I don't know.. I guess he should be retired... Right? Hmm...

Lindsay - 11 all star appearances 1 Art Ross trophy winner 4 stanley cups Named 1st all star team 7 times Lead league in goals, assists, and points in different seasons Delveccio - 13 all star appearances 3 Lady Bing trophies 3 Stanley cups 25 seasons with the Red Wings - Played with no other team in the league 1281 total points in career Abel - Lead league in goals 48/49 3 All star appearances 3 Stanley cups 1 Hart Trophy Each of them has more all star appearances (Abel had just as many), more stanley cups, has either an art ross or hart trophy, or passed the thousand point mark. The point is they've done something unique. Extremely unique. Datsyuk hasn't won a Hart, an Art Ross, nor has he gotten to the "3 cups" mark. You're right, there weren't many teams and hence competition was less. But what's also true is the players now are more skilled and its a faster game and Datsyuk was born into this fast era and is a part of it. The league has changed but so has the skill set of the players. Now just to play devils advocate- If Pav truly was a generational player (I personally believe he was in terms of his stick handling) then how come he wasn't elected to the all star game more than 4 times in his 13 seasons? How come he was never named onto the 1st all star team? Now the question arises, was he truly generational then? What really defines generational? Fedorov had 6 all star appearances, named 1st all star team, won 3 cups, 2 Selkes, 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Ted Lindsay award. He's technically achieved more in 13 years with the red wings than Datsyuk has in his 13 years. Sergei Fedorov achieved almost every item that Lindsay, Adel and Delveccio achieved individually! In terms of achievements, he's even closer than Pav. But what screwed Sergei? He left the franchise. Screwed the loyalty card over. Something that Abel, Delveccio, Lindsay DID have and actually still do. I see Ted Lindsay at tons of Red Wings games even to this day. I was at his book signing 3 years ago at the Joe before a game. The point is in the old era, these guys, they did it all. But so did Fedorov, in a newer era. Unfortunately Feds lost on the loyalty card. But if Feds could do it in a newer era then so should the next guy retired in the NEWEST era (year 2004 and beyond). On paper Pav doesn't really fit the category. Had he ended up winning the Hart Trophy in 2009 I'd probably say he's a shoe in. If he wins another cup (as many as the other guys up on the rafters, I'd also say he's a shoe in. For now tho all I can say is he "has a pretty good shot". And the loyalty he has for the org and love from the fans gives him a better chance than it does for Feds. I can't see Illitch retiring #91 when so many fans dislike the guy. It would be pretty awkward. But still their decision so who knows. So now back to this "bar" thing - It seems like guys up on the rafters have (1) - atleast 3 cups. (2)- Had organizational loyalty, and (3)- won unique individual awards. Fedorov has the cups and won the awards but lost on the loyalty. Datsyuk has 2 cups, organizational loyalty (we almost freaked out in 2013 thinking he'd leave us for Russia and lots of fans had great disdrain towards Datsyuk for that), and zero MVPs or point/goal scoring titles. Ok well say the 3 Selkes are pretty frickin awsome. So he's ok on the awards stuff. So Feds doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(2) and Datsyuk doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(1). Given all that, I think Datsyuk is closer to having his jersey retired than Feds because he still has a shot at another cup and building upon his legacy. Feds? Well that guy left us and hes long retired from the NHL. There's no changing his case. It's already written.

In your previous post you said "I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league." Thus the eras played in are incomparable. Yet the second post you say you're comparing Z and D to Delveccio, Howe, Lindsay etc? (BTW it's not impossible to win tons of cups in this era. See Blackhawks). BTW, I never said you compared them to Yzerman or Lidstrom,. But you proposed that on one hand you have an era of 30 teams and on the other you had "6" teams. Ok so then the only ones close to being compared "era" wise are Yzerman/Lidstrom. Additionally, no one is trying to "put Yzerman's accomplishments on Zetterberg". The only point is that Z has time to add more to his legacy, Yzerman did it at 37 and Z is still 34. But getting that captaincy status, Z needs to do something with it. He needs to show he can win a cup with that C. Regardless.. we've already made the points before in the previous pages. The standards are set very high to have your jersey retired. Being a "generational" player as Datsyuk is doesn't just cut it. If that was the case then they would have retired Fedorov by now and probably Shanahan and Syd Howe. They didn't. That's because it's not just one "category", there's multiple facets. All jerseys retired have accomplished a lot; been generational players, contributed heavily to the city of Detroit, loved by the fans, organization, and were on good terms when they were here and most of all, they have commitment. Like it or not if we do retire Z and D at this point it would be a lowering of the standards that have been set. They may be the first players with the lowest amounts of cups and accomplishments that would end up there. Now with another cup, it would solidify their case even further. Because the fact of the matter is, they have literally everything going for them (commitment, love by org/fans, generational players, leading by example, captaincy status for Z, Conn Smythe for Z, multiple Selkes for D, franchise records in points and the list goes on). We have no clue how the euro twins careers will end. Many of us thought Fedorov was a shoe in for jersey retirement back in 2002. 13 years later this is now a debate.

yzerman and lidstrom played in somewhat similar eras to the euro twins, the twins will have to get some more accomplishments under their belt. Especially Zetterberg. He's going to have to prove himself further as a captain. It's doable. Yzerman did well in the 2002 cup run and he was 37 years old. His leadership was epic. Played with a bad knee and scored at a point per game pace those playoffs. Incredible.

What happened to the days where people actually realized Phaneuf was garbage. Have the standards really sunken that low?

They have everything going for them but imo they need another cup. Z has to prove himself as a captain and lead the team to the cup just as the other guys on the rafters did. Datsyuk already has the edge because he is more of a generational player than Hank is. But if #13 does get retired so will #40. The two players legacy is too intertwined for only one to go up. But then again, that fact itself may be the reason they DON'T get retired.

No one is opposed. We love those guys and it would be awsome to have #13 and#40 next to each other as a constant reminder of the "euro twin" era. But its the organization that has set standards that are extremely high.

Harder to get your jersey retired as a Red Wing than to even be on the Hall of Fame ballot. Agree with Buppy as well. I just personally think Z or D might have a better shot at it (if their careers end well, if they pass the 1000 point mark, if Z shatters the playoff record, if they win another cup etc etc.) than Feds because of Feds history with the org sort of going down the toilet. They also have a few years left to add accomplishments on to their legacies. Other than that yeah, you really need to be a legend status to get it.

Fedorov was the better complete player. Better shooter, better goal scorer, better on ice vision, Fedorov was also the second fastest skater in the world for a while. (Fastest imo since he should have won by technicality at the al star game). So yeah, Feds better overall, by a long shot. Datsyuk has the better hands and possibly better pick pocketer.Feds could also play every position unlike Datsyuk. I think on our current roster the only player who has played each corner is Zetterberg. Z consistently plays center and left wing. On occasion plays right wing and often times he plays on either left or right corners of blue line during the powerplays. Feds was sort of like that too under Bowman. Dats plays center and on rare occasions left wing.

Franzen was an above average goal scorer, he's got an amazing wrist shot and he has big body. Unfortunately he doesn't do the best job of using his big body like some of the other players in the league do. His defense is slightly above average (nowhere near the Datsyuk or Zetterberg, or these days we call it the Glendenning level). I've said it before, for the amount that he's paid, he's totally worth what he can contribute. I'll take is 25-28 pace goals and his chemistry he has with Z and D when he plays with one of them. Would I call him a leader for the locker room? Yeah, now I would. The fact that he's going through what he is but still has the will to come back, that's something to admire. Would I have called him a leader before all this? Probably not. He never stuck out to me like Lidstrom, Hank and Pav did when it came to being a complete players and being role models. I just thought of him as Mule, the guy that put 25+ goals, had a beastly playoff year in 2008, and who ripped Kane's mouth guard off. I just think it's time to move on with these arguments tho. Obviously the Franzen fans are upset with the Franzen haters for the comments that were made against him all these years. But honestly, there's other crap going on. The man is trying to recover, lets wish him all the best. I want him back. But I want him to be healthy as well. To be real, with the 10+ concussion history I basically have written him off, at least as far as playing out his contract.

Aye I agree. Just addressing anyone who is blindly thinking that we will be better somehow next year by hiring Chelios or having Blash instead of Babs. All we do know is that we don't really know.

Kinda weird going from a coach with a full head of hair to a bald one. Trying to get used to this will be a bigger challenge for me than anything else next season.

Babcock's hiring isn't the same thing as Blashill's. Using the "well Babcock was only in the minors for two years and ended up being successful" argument doesn't work for our situation. The Red Wings hired him AFTER he proved himself at the NHL level with Anaheim. He wasn't a gamble for us when we brought him in, he was an upgrade from Lewis. Ah, yes Dave Lewis, former assistant and a head coaching failure. Before that it was Bownman. A proven head coach. That's nearly 25 years of Red Wings history for you. In short; in about 25 years the Red Wings have hired 4 coaches. Scotty Bowman who was a proven coach and led us to success. Mike Babcock who took his Anaheim Mighty Ducks to the Stanley cup finals shortly before coming here. And then two other coaches. Dave Lewis who was pretty bad in the playoffs and now Jeff Blashill a man with zero NHL coaching experience. Blashill is the biggest gamble we have seen in 25 years. Lewis, Babcock, and Bowman were not. These are facts. Do I hope the gamble works out for us? Yeah. Still a gamble though. Something we haven't seen in 25 years in this organization.

Sometimes you and Kipwinger give me hope as a Red Wings fan. Thank you for confirming your age

If Granato stays, I won't have a problem with Chelios being added on. But if we lose Granato without an equal or better replacement then I'm very skeptical for next year's coaching. Thank god our player leadership core is so strong that we would still be able fair well imo.

1. The 'genius stuff' is "omg Chelios?! success!!!!!!" I'm not being negative. I'm trying to make a point that we shouldn't be jumping the gun just because we hear our old fav D mans name. I love Chelios. Still do. But is it smart to wonder if he can be a good assistant? Yeah it is. What's not smart is to blindly assume this is a fairy tale. 2. Angry nights? Dam you really are psychic. Can you tell me if I will get to see my dead aunt sally this year from christmas? Oh I so hope I do. I'll take Lewis over Cleary. I hope Granato stays. He's an asset with coaching experience.

Blashill Chelios Cleary Damn just a few years ago we had Babcock MacLean Mcllelan The drop in standards from the fans is lovely,