ChristopherReevesLegs

Who's Hull?

Mantha is 3rd in world championship scoring with 9 pts (5 goals) in 4 games. Hronek is the top socring Dman with 7 pts (3 goals) in 4 games. Next season if Larkin can hit 70-80 pts again Bertuzzi/Mantha/AA can each hit 60 pts Hronek hits like 40ish pts Plus add Rasmussen/Svechnikov/Zadina/Veleno/Cholowski as wild cards Looks like the beginnings of a playoff team if goaltending holds up

Fersure. Which is why I want him to expand on what he thinks of Zagina's abilities and why he thinks Zagina is a bust. A hard opinion should have decent reasoning behind it 100% I'm willing to bet a good portion of what he'll say will be based on him slipping in the draft based on what I've seen him post before. To that I'd say, I was thrilled when we drafted Zadina, but after the fact I'm a little more skeptical. Zadina was advertised pre draft as a player who played a sound two way game without almost no faults. One of the only pre drafts knocks I could find on him was that he was "small" (he's 6 ft almost 200 lbs, not small). I definitely do not think his defensive game is up to par with what was advertised. I think he's currently closer to Hudler than he is too Hossa. And once I feel like I've been lied too I start picking apart the players game to figure out what else I've been lied to about. Now I'm rambling and I'll stop, I don't wanna speak for @mackel

True. He's RFA after this coming season. If he doesn't play better than he already has though, I'd be sort of lost on what to do with him. Just re-sign for cheap and keep on hoping?

@mackel is entitled to his opinion, however outrageous it may seem. We should be asking why poster X thinks player X is bad instead of calling people morons, or stupid, or trolls, or whatever TBH. A lot of people around here didn't like me when I first decided I thought Mrazek was s***... so I kinda know the feels What I like about Zadina: Accurate shot. Strong shot. Despite only 16 goals in the AHL this year I think he has sniper written all over him. His passing is underrated. Not lazy, definitely competes every shift, at least from what I've seen. Will back check and steal a puck off an attacker if he can. Hands are great quality and can cut to the middle and unload his shot when he wants to. What I don't like about Zadina: Foot speed/Foot work is average. Defensive abilities vastly overstated prior to the draft (I hope this can be taught with systems). His creativity one on one is sound, but I question his creativity working with teammates (kind of reminds me of AA). My worry would be that Zadina ends up a trigger man. Kinda like how Hudler was. Or kinda like how AA is known for his breakaways, whereas Zadina would be known for being the finisher to a setup guy. Takeaway the setup guy and his offense disappears. I just also never feel the raw excitement I got from watching Larkin when I watch Zadina. Maybe Larkin is just an exciting style player and Zadina is not, or maybe Larkin's just better. 100% of that is speculation and amateur opinion, but I'd be curious to know what @mackel 's opinion is on Zadina's ability...

I"m sure I did sarcastically/ironically at some point. I've been non-sarcastically arguing that he's comparable to Hudler since like Novemeber though. The theory sort of being that Zadina is a one-dimensional passenger style player, kinda like Jiri. On an average 2nd/3rd line he will be average, but give him a center like Johnny hockey (or Dylan Larkin) and he might score 70+ points. IDK just a theory though.

You asked once, and I answered: Despite my answer that I think he will be a contributor, you continued misrepresenting my position (strawman): At this point I've made it pretty clear I think Zadina is similar to Nyquist/Tatar, both top 6 wingers Yet you continue to assert that I think he's a bust: Hint not taken and continued: "You called him a bust" Which I never did, so I finally call you out: At this point I've compared Zadina to Nyquist/Tatar multiple times and explicitly called him a likely 50 to 60 pt winger Never the less, you continue: Now I've even given you an 80 pt ceiling and 30 pt foor. But apparently I still think he's a bust: Then my favorite After calling out your straw-manning a second time, you simply write out a fake quote lol If you got mixed up and honestly thought I called Zadina a bust somewhere down the line, just call it an oops and move on. But I didn't just lay hints, I explicitly called him a 50/60 point player, 80 pt ceiling, Nyquist/Tatar similar, future contributor, multiple times directly to you. So don't put your oops on me.

Yeah you've been straw manning my position for the past few pages. You literally went on a cuss rant about me calling Zadina a bust, and in the same post responded to me saying his ceiling was 80 points...

I'll pass. I get the feeling Zadina and Rasmussen will get called up relatively quickly next season. Maybe we even see a little Joe Veleno in Detroit too. No way Hughes is better

I mean it's France. What're those frogs gonna do against future 1D Bertuzzi?

To be clear I would have been fine with either Ras or Zadina putting up those numbers in that role this year. What I'm not thrilled about is putting a young player in that role. Would have preferred to see Ras in GR getting more than 12 min a night. Hmmm that's a nice quote you found, where did you pull it from? Was it from here? Maybe here? No no, maybe this one? Or was it from the last 5+ pages where I described a player who I think is Tatar/Nyquist level? Odd thing for a bust to be... No

Tag Bertuzzi is eligible to be drafted this year. 9 pts in 30 games in the OHL this year. Maybe we can waste our 2nd rounder on him like we did with Tyler?

Hey I'm not thrilled about Rasmussen's season either. Although if Zadina potted 18 pts playing 62 games on the 4th line this season, I would have been ok with it TBH. I think Rasmussen would have been a force playing top 6 minutes in the AHL, and I kinda hope he gets put there to start the season. TLDR: Shoulda took Brannstrom. You keep going back to the same straw man well, even though there's no water in it lol You know I don't actually think he's busted... why play these silly games?

Zadina is lazy and he busts

So it means he had a disappointing first season. I'm not in the habit of sticking my head in the sand when a player has a bad season relative to expectations just because he might one day be better. And I don't think it's as "dumb" or "******* stupid" as some of you seem to think it is to express concern about it. 35 pts and -17 in the AHL does not meet the standards I have for a supposed future star of this team, even in his first season. Simple as that. I'm expecting a much bigger second season out of him. If he can make the team and contribute 30-50 pts next season I would be happy, or if he can dominate the AHL and put up like 50-70 pts I'd feel better. He's got to get his plus/minus up to. It's not my primary concern, but his is shockingly bad. By far the worst in that stat on the team. 1257 players played in the AHL last year. Zadina ranked 1224 in plus/minus. Yikes. No that's what I think is likely based on what I've seen so far. His floor is idk, 30 pt winger? But I think that's unlikley His ceiling is probably like 80 pts... at least that's what I thought when we drafted him.

I established a premise You agreed to the premise: The rest is deductive reasoning from said premise to reach the conclusion: If Larkin is a good measuring stick for the development/talent for Top 5 ranked prospects, and Zadina is not measuring up to where Larkin was at the same age, therefore Zadina had a disappointing season for a Top 5 prospect I said this in response to you in this very thread: A 50 to 60 point winger, and I think he has a very good shot of hitting either of those numbers playing in our top 6.

I thought we both agreed Larkin was a good measuring stick. If he is, then Zadina is behind where Larkin was at the same age. I mean by all means, keep reverting back to this straw man if that's all you have to discredit my POV. You know exactly where I stand on Zadina's floor and cieling. You guarantee me eh? Lets look at Larkin and Zadina's stints after their first 9 NHL games. At this point they are almost the exact same age and both have 9 NHL games under their belts. Zadina gets sent down and scored 4 pts in 14 games to close the AHL regular season. He is -7 over those 14 games. Larkin remains in the NHL and scores 10 pts in his next 14 games and is +5 over those 14 games.

"He young, you dumb" Got it. No doubt he was one of the youngest players in the league. The Wings had to appeal to the league to get him the AHL at all. I like that Zadina's age is suddenly of interest now though. The fact that he was only 30th in rookie scoring is even more deflating. I have yet to be told how this makes a huge a difference. Not really. Zadina was "rushed" just as quickly as Larkin was. In fact at the date of Zadina's first game as a Red Wing he was almost the exact same age that Larkin was during his first game as a Red Wing. The difference being, I think Larkin would have blown the wheels off the AHL if he was sent down after 9 games. In just the 6 AHL playoff games he was in in his first year he had 3 goals and 5 points. Disagree if you like.

I to this day deny that any jerking motion every happened. Pennsylvania DNR disagreed with my interpretation of events.

you are a true gentlemen

Got ticketed by the department of natural resources one time for putting excessive weights and hooks on my line and dragging them over the backs of the fish. Snagging. And that was the day the government taught me: IT MATTERS HOW Now I only catch fish the government mandated way Thank you government

I really have different expectations for Zadina. This is actually kind of a new thing for myself and Wings fans in general I think, because we haven't had a player like this in a very long time. A player ranked top3/top5 in his draft class I mean. With Larkin I didn't have these expectations, but he certainly would have been a top5 pick looking back now. So I think Larkin is a good measuring stick in the sort of play I expect of a player of this significance. So far, I haven't been Larkin level impressed with Zadina's play yet. To me he looks like Tatar out there, only worse at defense, which I think Tatar was underrated at. My B on the waiver eligibility. You're 100% correct it is cause of the ELC slider, which I know. Dumb brain malfunction on my part. My point remains the same though. If the player is good enough, like Larkin, you ignore the 9 game limit and play the player. I suspect the Red Wings would have loved for Zadina to have 45 pt rookie season this year with the main club. But he never really impressed at the AHL level to earn the callup. I suggest you check your facts on that one Zadina combined with Terry for more points than any other player on the team. He spent a healthy amount of time with Terry, Megan, Turgeon, Camper, Holmstrom, Puemple, and Ford included. Hronek and Zadina also had really good chemistry despite Hronek only spending about 30 games in the AHL this year. Zadina also had more than a few multi point games. And while I enjoy a player who can takeover games, there are some good stretches where he remained pointless in the AHL this year. I was expecting much more of a show of force from a player of his caliber in this regard. Bear in mind as well, Zadina more than led his team in having a negative plu/minus. He's consistently on the ice during goals against more than anyone. And even though I don't put much stock in +/- his is alarmingly different than the rest of the teams and I'm starting to feel his defensive abilities leading into draft day were completely overrated. I hope he does have a big year. In fact I hope he spends exactly zero time in the AHL this year. I would love to see how he sizes up to the rest of the NHL on a consistent basis. Well that's a s***ty comparison. Any player who hits 70+ pts in this league is coveted by all. And if you took a 90 pt player in the 3rd round these days your job is secured for life. I have different expectations for Zadina than I do for say Jonatan Berggren. If Berggren just makes the team and contributes in any way that's a win. But a player like Zadina I wholly expect to become a keystone player soon. If Zadina tops out at a 60 pts a season level player, I will consider that a disappointing pick, and people will say Holland shoulda taken Hughes or something. If he can consistently score in the high 60s or breach the 70s, and/or contribute 30+ goals a season my expectations will be satisfied. You're absolutely right. I made the comparison earlier to Kucherov, who didn't become relevant until he was 21. Now he dominates. Maybe Zadina is like Kucherov. Maybe Berggren is like Kucherov. The difference is I have much higher expectations for Zadina than I do for Berggren. If we had taken Kucherov at #6 in his draft year, I would have been disappointed by his production up until he turned 21. And I don't think it would be out of touch to feel that way in that scenario.