ChristopherReevesLegs

What's your point here? That some 6th overall picks are utter disappointments and some live up to the hype? Well good, I hope that puts it into some perspective that what I'm suggesting isn't all that wild. Kid should be traded while there are still folks buying the hype...

Firstly, I can write pages - and have - detailing exactly what I do and don't like about Zadina, leading to my personal opinion on him. The response I get to that is consistently one lacking in any substance, and 10 times out of 10 is rooted soley in "well I'm a Red Wings slappy and I know he''l be great because I hope he'll be great". So either give me some concrete reasons why I'm so wrong about boy wonder or learn to deal with it. I don't have much sympathy for any argument rooted in "well the collective narrative of the Red Wings fan hive mind says I should think X way about X player." And yeah Gagner being a bottom6er/AHLer after being picked 6th overall is in bust territory. Secondly, you all know my Hudler/Zadina perspective. I've laid it out countless times. So the whole strawman thing you rolled out to start this cant even be feigned with ignorance. Lastly, I do enjoy using #bust because of the programmed screeching it incites. You'd think yall would learn not be triggered by it by now, but nah the blind faith in Zadina is too precious.

What's the difference between me n you? If we had played this year picking up where we left off at the end of last season (still out of playoffs but showing hope and progress like we sorta expected), I would be fine and thrilled to settle for an O'Reilly or Schenn. But no. They have angered me with their poop play, and now I desire only the most extravagant draft picks. And I demand satisfaction. If I'm gonna be forced to watch the same s***ty team again next year I want ******* results Stephen. Crosby's and Malkin's bicch. 5 of them.

Don't buyout or waive Nielsen or Abby then. Boom cup.

Kindly return to the kids table then while the adults talk Precisely why I think trading a Mantha or a Larkin or some other core piece is completely within the realm of possibility for us. This was Yzerman's "wait n observe year" and he was still flippin' DLRs and Regulas every which way. I can only imagine what Stephen will do when this clown team comes out flat again next year in a non-"observation" season. I don't think he'll have any reservations about dumping or flipping some of these "core by default" players to get to where he wants to be. For the record my mantra has been 5-10 years. I think 5 is your min if everything goes swimmingly and as planned. I think 10 because things rarely go as planned (or swimmingly lately). On this I'm in the camp of we'll see. And that's my stance on Seider too. Love Seider personally and think he will be great, but I can't call him our definite future #1 until he starts showing at the very least flashes of it at the NHL level. Same with these prospects. For all we know Stutzle is the next Nolan Patrick. That said I do trust Yzerman's drafting after he picked Seider, just can't officially count this years pick until we see it. If it's Lafreniere I'll just give it to ya... You're looking back in full hindsight. The trade happened 2 seasons ago and the Sabres knew a lot less about Tage Thompson then than they do now, and couldn't have predicted STL would win the cup the same year they had STL's first. But that's whatever, it's a risk you take. Tage Thompson is 22 and has 107 NHL games under his belt already btw. You all would be speaking highly of him if he was a Red Wing prospect. I dunno anything about Ryan Johnson, but he'll be 28 when ROR is 39. That's the temporal aspect to all this that everyone loves to ignore. Trading a player like ROR isn't about replacing ROR (other than with fill ins like Sobotka and Berglund) it's about looking in the mirror soberly, admitting to yourself that you're not gonna get it done in this window with this player around, so you cut your losses and trade him in for future assets. Acquire enough future assets and hopefully you will reach a critical mass down the road. Tage Thompson and Ryan Johnson =/= ROR = a false equivalency I mean call me annoyed at this point, but I've typed out pages about my thoughts on Zadina on like 300 separate occasions now, and you Zagina lickers still misrepresent and strawman mine and Mackel's position. I've said from November 2018 till today pretty consistently he is Hudler/Tatar/Nyquist. A good player but not a game-changer. Not the building block this team needed out of a 6th overall pick. #bust I've already addressed this in this thread. Wanting superstars and obtaining late-1sts are not mutually exclusive concepts. And it's honestly laughable that you would try to assert it as such. Everyone and their brother knows the best way to obtain superstars is to tank. Trading core players allows one to stay in the bottom rungs and boost the height of ones own pick. Having extra firsts is just a significant bonus to that and another dice roll. This is lvl 1 tank stuff my dood.

Definitely, I'm expecting 1sts coming back to be late. Trading core players is about getting those picks + siphoning off talent to keep our own 1st rounder high. Going back to picking 6th again anytime soon would suck big balls. Tell me which looks better for a rebuild: 2021: 6th overall + Larkin or 1-4 overall + (2) late firsts + roster players 2022: 6th overall + Mantha or 1-4 overall + (2) late firsts + roster players In just two short years you can stock the farm with (2) top4 picks + (4) late first rounders. Or we can keep Larkin and Mantha (hooray) and get two picks outside the top5.

I don't have an ideal trade in mind. It would likely be a haul of a bunch of different moving parts. For Larkin - if it happened tomorrow - I'd expect a roster center coming back to cover our positional needs among picks and prospects. Look at the ROR trade. He got in return from the Blues two roster centers, a prospect (drafted in the 1st), a 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick. That's a decent reference point to start from. Fill me in on why those two things are mutually exclusive? We're not guaranteed a superstar anywhere in the draft. That's a fact. And that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the return we may or may not get for Larkin. Selling a Larkin/Mantha/Whomever accomplishes two things: obtaining assets and tanking. Surely I don't have to explain the concept and benefits of tanking to you. Would love to ship a young Lafreniere in, and an established Mantha out, to keep us picking high and keep us picking a lot. Go for critical mass

Thank you again for the substance. The moment Seider starts looking like Tyler Myers 2.0 I trade him too. There's absolutely zero sense in hanging on to non-superstar players in our position because they might maybe one day could maybe help us in the playoffs 5 years from now. The only reason you hang onto them is because no ones offering a good return yet. But when they do... buh bye. We have no need for 1980 Dale McCourt. We have need for 1988 Yzerman. And there's only one way to get those in the modern age... make some withdrawals from the tank bank. And it probably means more than a few withdrawals.

Somewhere near Huntington

It's certainly not guaranteed. Is it likely that we will at least be getting a good player? Yes. Is it likely we will be getting a superstar? A lot less so. Text message to all 30 other GMs: "Everyone besides Seider is available" Then wait. Only pulling the trigger on a great return, whether that comes in 5 day, 5 months, or 5 years. Superstars <-- what we need Good players <-- expendable Average players <-- expendable Bad players <-- expendable Larkin is the only where I think you prolly need a roster C coming back the other way, only because this team is completely trash garbage at center

Type it enough times and it'll definitely come true "If everything works out perfectly we'll be fine" Things aren't perfect. I've listened to Wings fans say "oh but next year we'll be looking a lot better" for like 10+ years now. Yeah yeah but THIS TIME we'll definitely be in the playoffs again soon. This time it's different than all those other times. Right. This is gonna take a whole lot longer than any of you imagine. Especially if we're gonna limp this average core around like it's the 1970s. What does there return on Hall and Eberle have to do with anything other than just general Oilers bashing? I'm not advocating for trading anyone for peanuts.

Fastest way to the top is to keep digging down till we pop out on the other side. Limping this average core around is a recipe for 40+ years of deadwings. Draft Lafreniere, but trade Mantha too. Keep drafting high after Lafrenire. BUT WHO WILL LAFRENIERE PLAY WITH? Veleno, Rasmussen, Berggren, etc etc. We don't need to win now, so we don't need players like Mantha now. We hope You answered your own question lol. Edmonton is much better team than us with much better building blocks precisely bc they tanked. They built a failed core of Hall/Eberle etc sure, and they also smartly traded them off when they realized these players were good, but not good enough. Mantha's your Hall, Larkin's your 1978 Dale McCourt. McDavid and Draisitl lol They exact type of players I'm advocating for.

The looming expansion draft is just another reason to keep tanking this tank

I have thing for hardcore ******* "Babe, the boys r going out drinking, do you care if I go?" Her: "...no, it's fine" *45 minutes later at the bar* Angry text from babe: "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU CHOSE YOUR FRIENDS OVER ME AGAIN" Classic Saturday night scenario

Didn't say it had to be I don't want to build a team of non-elite players. Dynastic teams are built with elite ones. Assuming that the next two drafts are going to completely fix this franchise is completely short-sighted IMO. Things rarely ever work out that nicely or concisely.

I'm certainly operating from a "prepare for the worst" perspective. Like all it would take is for our Byfield/Rossi/Stutzle pick to only turn out to be a 2C to completely throw a wrench in that plan. Your plan also has us drafting lottery picks in the next 3 drafts (I assume this to mean top15). Say in the next two drafts after this one we are picking in the 10-15 range. The chances of us pulling a Svechnikov or Sheahan kinda pick in that range is a real risk. Or just pulling an average 2nd line player. We could reach that year 4 with a completely average playoff bubble team. Not bad enough to draft high anymore, not good enough to win a cup. That would be my primary fear, followed by decades of retooling the core till we become that lucky "anything can happen in the playoffs team" I'd rather just tank even harder and build a glorious dynasty of multiple Lafrenieres

In theory I agree and like the idea. We have a short window to reach critical mass on young talent before Yzerman rights the ship. The more we can get now the better. However I'm not holding out for some blockbuster 1st overall trade, or any of the top10 picks moving for that matter. I give it a 99% chance it doesn't happen. It never does. I think there's two practical paths forward: You like the core and slowly build around it. You don't like the core and you continue to run the ship against the rocks until you do like it. Larkin - un-tradeable due to positional needs Hronek - un-tradeable due to positional needs Seider - too young to trade Zadina - too young to trade (for now) Fabbri - totally tradeable Mantha - totally tradeable Bertuzzi - I like too much to trade HSJ was speculating just the other day that Mantha's contract will likely be 1 year or a long extension. If he gets the 1 year I could see him gone at some point soon. It would suck to lose a big bodied sniper like that, but if the haul is impressive f*** it I'm in. Not sure I'd do it for just Askarov and a prospect, I'd need more. Fabbri is Fabbri.

DARKNESS IMPRISONING ME ALL THAT I SEE ABSOLUTE HORROR

Thanks for the substance If you 100% disagree with me you must believe one or both of the following: A. Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek, Zadina, Seider - multiple of these players have serious superstar potential we haven't seen yet. B. You're confident Yzerman will find multiple franchise superstars either in this draft, or future ones where we likely start to pick lower as we accelerate upwards. For one I don't think any of our current core - besides maybe Seider - has superstar potential. And two, if we're talking about a playoff appearance in year 4, I do not believe that is enough time to acquire multiple superstars picking at varying points within the next few drafts. Some of our 1st rounders (per usual) are not gonna turn out to be the superstars we need them to be. Even when picking high.

Core by default is a good term. That's what it feels like. I don't wanna build around an average core. I wanna wallow in the mud and the filth and feel all that good heavy soul crushing hurt until we draft a dynastic core. I feel like I'm the guy in the bar who gets a call from his girl 6 drinks in. "OMG CRL R U AT THE BAR DRINKING AGAIN???". And you guys are all like "You should probably go home dude, sober up and work on your relationship. Amy's a nice girl" My attitude is f*** Amy. She already caught me, I'm already in trouble, may as well have a few more rounds at this point and close the bar. I can get a new better Amy next weekend anyway if she decides to pack her bags. Thats my bad analogy for: f*** it dude, we're already in the NHLs basement. May as well stick around and stack some quality players while we're here. If Mantha ends up running out on us while we're down here then f*** him too, we're getting better Mantha's in the next draft. No doubt it's a fatalistic outlook, but it's also the quickest path to a dynasty in my book. My worst fear is Mantha is Franzen 2.0. Larkin is Toews 2.0. Seider is Kronwall 2.0. Zadina is Oshie 2.0... and we sneak into the playoffs in 4 years with this completely average team and never accomplish anything to show for it. Like 2011-2016 all over again. So far we've come out of these doldrums with two 6th overall picks. This year we will get something in 1-4. Frankly, even if we get Lafreniere, I don't think two 6ths and one 1st is a good enough haul for the pain we've already endured. Ideally I think we should be trying to come out of this trough with multiple top4 picks and supplementary 1st rounders as well. Say Yzerman gets the wheels on the bus going next year and we're picking 6-10 again. The year after we're in the 6-10 range and so on, leading up to a 4th year playoff appearance. I don't think adding one Lafreniere is the way to do this. Exploit the tragedy and get multiple of these guys is what I say.

Yzerman has to add a 2C right? We've been searching for one since young Fil left the team in 2013. First it was Weiss, then Nielsen, now Filppula again. All experiments failed. Now are choices behind Larkin seem to be Filppula, Nielsen, Ehn, Glendening, and possibly Gagner. I think it's universally agreed all 4 are awful choices for a 2C. Veleno and Rasmussen are promising (and possibly our 1st rounder this year) but none are likely ready to fill that roll yet. So here's some options Yzerman has in UFA: Ryan Nugent Hopkins - coming off $6 mil ---- 27 yo - 61 pts in 65 games Mikael Granlund ------- coming off $5.75 mil - 28 yo - 30 pts in 63 games Alex Galchenyuk ------- coming off $4.9 mil -- 26 yo - 24 pts in 59 games (plays a lot of wing) Carl Soderberg -------- coming off $4.75 mil - 35 yo - 35 pts in 70 games (plays a lot of wing) Craig Smith ------------- coming off $4.25 mil - 31 yo - 31 pts in 69 games (plays a lot of wing) Slava Namestnikov --- coming off $4 mil ------ 28 yo - 35 pts in 65 games (former Yzerman player) Sam Gagner ----------- coming off $3.15 mil -- 31 yo - 13 pts in 42 games (plays a lot of wing) Erik Haula -------------- coming off $2.75 mil -- 30 yo - 24 pts in 48 games (plays a lot of wing) Colin Wilson ----------- coming off $2.6 mil ---- 31 yo - (injured) prior season had 27 pts in 65 games Mattias Janmark ------ coming off $2.3 mil ---- 27 yo - 21 pts in 62 games (plays a lot of wing) Derrick Brassard ----- coming off $1.2 mil ---- 33 yo - 32 pts in 66 games Honorable mentions: Mikko Koivu, Joe Thornton, Tyler Ennis Unfortunately quality options are extremely limited. I had to stretch a bit and include players that seem to play mostly wing now. I think the obvious names to target are: RNH, Granlund, Namestnikov, Haula, and Brassard... and realistically I don't think we have a shot at RNH or Haula. But on (hopefully) short term deals Granlund, Namestnikov, or Brassard could be some viable options. EDIT: credit to @Akakabuto RNH is not UFA this year

It's gonna be mighty sad for Abby next year when he goes to the Griffs and only manages 30 pts

I don't really know what Chicago's needs are. Goalie? Maybe D? They seem to have a decent forward lineup even without Strome. They probably see Dach as the future 2C over Strome, which is likely why they don't wanna pay Strome the big contract he's likely to garner this year. Honestly their biggest need is probably unloading Seabrook. Would you take Strome + Seabrook for whatever?

Timashov + Bowey + our extra 3rd this year. RFA for RFAs. throw in some AHLers like Hirose or Turgeon for good measure

IDK, I don't see any 1st rounders coming out of those players, some 2nds would be nice though. Filppula maybe gets a 3rd? The most telling prediction for me was "Blashill probably gone, might remain with the Wings in a different capacity" AKA this guy is so goddamn awful he's not gonna be able to get a coaching job elsewhere in the NHL.