LeftWinger

I will take Cleary over Hudler for sure! He is definately more valuable than Hudler! I'd take a bottom 6 of 3 Cleary's and 3 Maltby's over a whole team of Hudler's...

Cleary is no better than a 3rd liner. He is very valuable on this team on the 3rd line, but given 2nd or 1st line minutes he sucks. He has proven that the last couple of seasons. He was stinking it up all last year until Babcock put him on the 3rd line with Helm. I know he is in your sig and you have a huge crush on him and he is your fav, but he doesn't hold a candle to Malbty's importance to this team when he played. Hudler should not even be mentioned in this thread, thats how important he was to this team... Whats next, Datsyuk is indeed VERY important to this team, but are you going to tell us all that he is more valuable than Fedorov was? That is what you are saying about Cleary, that he is just as valuable as Maltby ever was and that is bullcrud. Again....Hudler isn't, wasn't or (Thank God) will never be as valuable Red Wing player!

TWICE since 2002 Kirk Maltby has scored 14 goals amongst 37 and 33 points respectively as a 4th line grinder! We've all seen what Hudler can do on a 4th line...crap. Give me 6 guys that can put in 14 goals and 35 points from the bottom 6 PLUS have the defensive ability of Maltby over anything Hudler hsa done or still does in his career... you guys are smoking crack.

For all of you idiots who think Hudler could EVER replace what Maltby meant to this team.... Cleary doesn't come near Maltby either! Show me Hudler have a MVP shift like this and I will drink the kool aid. Oh wait, Hudler would never have a shift like this...

Wow! Really? Hudler was nowhere near as good defensively! Picture Hudler on the Grind Line!

I cannot believe nobody put Fedorov or CuJo on their lists....Hudler doen't belong ANYWHERE on that list! Fedorov lead the team in points with 83 in that one season, Hudler has 127 in SEVEN seasons... I mention CuJo because he did win 34 games and even if they did get swept in the first round, he still only had a 2.08 GAA for the playoffs. If the Wings cannot score more than 2 goals a game, they usually do not win...also how valuable was Manny during the whole Cujo/Hasek debacle? 23 wins followed the next year by 37 (too bad he did choke in the playoffs...) All three of these guys should make that list above Hudler and with the exception of one magical playoff year, Franzine doesn't deserve to be ranked that high, he is WELL below the MVP status of Filppula! No Maltby? So Hudler was more valuable than Maltby? Hopefully this was an oversight...

Point is and was, 2002's Cup was not bought buy Illitch, no more or less than 2008. UFA's in both years played significant roles and had big, clutch goals for them. The fact that Kip said the Illtich bought the Cup in 2002 is what got us going on the UFA discussion. Niether Cup was won directly because of the UFA acquistions, but because of the core drafted and acquired through trades. The UFA's made significant contributions and had cutch goals. But you can say that for every team that wins it every year. Miami Heat perfect example of a team "buying" and chamionship. Now if Hull and Robiataille would have come in and lead the team in scoring in the season and playoffs and Olausson was the second coming of Lidstrom that year, then maybe he'd have a bit of a point, but even then, this team was already built before the UFA's via the draft and trades from previous and far previous season's. Nothing was "bought." an example of Illtich trying to buy a Cup would be when he signed CuJo and Hatcher to ungodly contracts (at the time.) We see how that worked out. Even though Hatch got hurt and CuJo played very VERY well, it still didn't get us the Cup...

Got 65 out of 76... missed: Ellis, Mowers, Langfeld, Hartigan, SMITH, Ritola, Bootland, Norton, Hussey, Newbury & Stafford. Nearly forgot about Markov and Leino....WTF when did Mark Mowers play 46 games? Did I miss a season or two? For some reason I remembered Don MacLean...maybe the name MacLean popped in my head because of Paul MacLan, but it was there! LOL!

No, its not that easy, but if not for Hasek, they would be down more than 1-0. Luc's goal could've easily been anyone else along with Olausson's. My point is, the 33 points those three put in that playoff means nothing if not for Hasek. My point was, it was more important of a move to trade for Hasek than to sign the UFA's, by saying Detroit bought the Cup he was pretty much saying if Holland doesn't sign those UFA's Detroit doesn't win the Cup. I believe that to be wrong. Luc's 9 points and Olausson's 6 points (albeit a couple of huge important points) could have been score by someone else... He says 2008 was a team built to win the Cup because less UFA's scored points, but you bring up Luc's and Freddie's goals, how many huge goals did Sammy have in 2008? I think 3 of his 5 goals came in one game, so he was just as valuable a UFA in 08 as Robitaille was in 02, if not more valuable, yet he still argues that 02 was bought. Bottom line is none of Detroit's Cups were bought. They were teams built and pieces added. A team that buys a championship buys the top UFA's and those UFA's go on to lead the team in points and are the reason said team wins....ala Miami Heat. Each of Detroit 4 recent Cups were won by a core built through the draft and via trades, supplemented by a couple of UFA signings that just happen to fit right into the cog...

Also, Kip, I agree Z was invaluable in 2008, but that was 4 years and a bad back ago. He is delining and cannot play like he used too. He would make a great leader and would get consideration only after about 20 other players (both FWD and D) were nabbed up before him...Honestly thinking about it, if I could have a first line of Ovie-Dats-Malkin then I would be very happy signing Z to center the 2nd line. Now I know that would be a very expensive first line, but I am sure they would be some of those players who would consider lower pay to play together...I would also try to land one of Suter/Weber before Kronwall. I also like Hedman better, but Kronwall would come in as 3rd choice. Also Howard would be my 3rd choice for a starter behind Miller and Thomas. Players that would NOT be back for sure: Franzen, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Emmerton, Holmstrom, Quincey, Ericsson, Kindl. Those guys wouldn't even get a call from me.

If you want to compare teams and playoffs points, both years had 2 of the top 10 playoff scorers acquired by UFA...97 and 98 had zero in the top 10 yet the core of those two teams were still there in 2002 which would have won the Cup with out Hull, Robitaille and Olausson. The reason they won the Cup in 2002 was the core remained intact, they acquired what they needed via the trades, including probably the biggest reason, Dom Hasek. 16 wins, 92% SAV 1.86 GAA with 6 shoutout's including back to back in game 6 and 7 of the WCF. Without Hasek, they don't win, without Hull & Company they do...

This is what I am talking about...with the likes of Malkin/Ovie/Stamkos/Crosby available and willing to play anywhere, Zetterberg is not my first choice over any of those guys, but he would get tons of consideration after attempting to sign those guys...maybe if he were 5-7 years younger and not have a bad back...its all about winning Cups and as long as everyone is availavle and all teams will be in a bidding war for the top 20+ guys, I am going after them too! If I just re-signed the current Red Wings team, they would barely even make the playoffs...

I do give a crap, but if all 700+ players become UFA's then every team will be buying players and why not try to get the best. This team has already proven it cannot hang with the elite talent in the NHL. Besides, given that if this happens it does not affect our yoots that are still in GRR and around the world, I'd still have a great farm system and draft class to bring up. I am just saying if the top 10 payers are available, I am offering them contracts before Zetterberg. Zetterberg may get an offer from me, but he wold not be my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th choice...I am going after Datsyuk, Malkin, Ovie, Crosby & Stamkos first...I like Kronwall, but there are at least 10 other defensmen that are better before I'd offer him a contract. I am not saying he wouldn't eventually be on my team, but my first choices would not be current Red Wings outside of Dats and Helm...

The point is, only three UFA's were acquired in 2001 for that season, Hull was the only one with more than 10 playoff points and he didn't sign until August 2001 and had plaenty of offers worth MORE money. Robitaille was signed to replace Lapointe and again, he chose Detroit when LA didn't want him, Illitch did not have to outbid anyone for him and nobody even remembered Olausson when Detroit signed him in May of 01....the rest of the team was either already there for years or acquired by trades, which in no way equals buying a Cup by signing all the top UFA's in one year to win a Cup... if you are basing your opinion that way for the 2002 Cup, then Illitch must have bought all his Cups because he added pieces each of those years as well via UFA...if that is the case then every team buys the Cup every year...in 2001-2002 Illitch didn't even come near what Minnesota did last July and what Illitch tried to do himself...The core of 2002 was built via the draft and trades and were all there in 97 and 98...but I guess since Holland happened to draft tons of future HOF's and gave up valuable assests for missing pieces and happened to be the destination of players who wanted to win, I guess they never really earned it then.... also, those three UFA's accounted for 33 playoff points, 18 from Hull. That is only 17% of the playoff scoring...77% of the playoff scoring (minus the other UFA's) were from drafted and acquired players....Unfortunate for your argument, the Wings more than likely still win the Cup without the 33 points from those three UFA's....

Here we go..... Steve Yzerman - draft pick Brendan Shanahan - acquired for Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau Oct. 1996 Sergei Fedorov - draft pick Brett Hull - signed as UFA August 22, 2001 WELL after 29 other teams could have offered him a contract. Nick Lidstrom - draft pick Chris Chelios - acquired for Ander Eriksson and TWO 1st round draft picks March 1999 Tomas Holmstrom - draft pick Igor Larionov - acquired for Ray Sheppard Oct. 1995 - re-acquired for Yan Golubovsky Dec. 2000 Luc Robitalle - signed as UFA July 5th 2001 for his beloved LA Kings didn't even want him back that year... Darren McCarty - draft pick Pavel Datsyuk - draft pick Kirk Maltby - acquired for Dan McGillis March 1996 Boyd Devereaux - signed as UFA August 23rd 2000, well after 29 other could have offered him a contract... Frederick Olausson - signed as UFA May 2001 out of Swiss League (who else wanted him? Noone.) Steve Duschesne - signed as UFA Sept. 1999 well after 29 other teams had a chance to offer a contract... Kris Draper - acquired for $1 (CAN) and future considerations June 1993 Mathieu Dandenault - draft pick Dom Hasek - acquired for Slava Kozlov and a 1st round pick July 2001 Uwe Krupp - signed as UFA July 1998 Manny Legace - signed as UFA August 1999, claimed off waivers from VAN Oct. 1999 Jiri Slegr - acqured for Yuri Butsayev and a 3rd round draft pick Jason Williams - signed as an undrafted UFA in Sept 2000.... that is the playoff roster, so show me exactly where Illtich BOUGHT the Cup...I see a team built through drafting, trading assests for assests and acquiring UFA's that everyone passed on, with the exception of MAYBE Robitaille and he didn't have to outbid ANY of the other teams for ANY of the UFA's he signed...and remember they had justlost LaPointe to UFA so they needed to replace his production and they did so 4 days after 29 other teams could have thrown big bucks as Luc.... anyone who says Illitch bought that 02 Cup hasn't paid any attention to how the Yankees or Heat operate....If somehow the Wild pull off a Cup win this year (or when they come back) you can accuse them of buying a Cup...

If I have my choice of Zetterberg or Stampkos or Ovechkin or Malkin playing along side Dastyuk, Z is gone....Especially since the front loaded contracts will be gone so you couldn't ice too many top tier stars...ya sign the guy with the bad back and on the decline of his career, who has slowly done worse and worse each year since 2008...ya, sign him and tell the top 10 talent of the league to take a hike we don't want to win....Now if Z sign a modest contract to be 2nd/3rd line center, thats a different story...but no way am I choosing a chronically hurt older player of a Crosby/Stamkos or Tavares or Malkin/Ovie... Just for giggles, exactly what Cup did Illitch buy?

I like the toughness, but I can't help but remind you that ALL players would be UFA's. The ONLY guys that I would keep that is on our team now is Datsyuk and possibly Helm. But as long as I still had a shot at the elite of the elite (including goalies) I am not going after any other current Red Wings until I have to. Zetterberg has been great here, but as long as Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Half the Edmonton team, Tavares, Stamkos and the likes are available, Zetterberg isn't on my team. I would only nab Kronwall if I could land Hedman along with Suter or Weber. I know there is still a cap, so I do agree with the fact that I cannot have an all star team, but I love the idea of Malkin or Ovie playing top line with Datsyuk over Zetterberg.

I wouldn't mind this, but I am not so sure that everyone will be fighting to come to Detroit and play....we lost out on the big free agents over the summer once already and we HAD the cash for them...I don't think that would change if all players became UFA. You'd have to land the biggest and best first to attract the rest, because you'd have players teaming up who want to play with each other, like the Olsen twins did. Landing the best would mean Illitch would have to whip out the wallet and get Ovie, Malkin, or......Crosby Excuse me while I wash my mouth out with soap....if Holland couldn't land any top 10 talent, then this team goes Waaay downhill for a UFA destination.... IF all 700+ players became UFA's I would hope that the new CBA would have a stipulation that the team they belong(ed) to has first crack at re-siging the players. I guess that would be a true UFA, but at least it would save some of the smaller franchises from folding....and it would keep Detroit on the map...

Yes, I know, its like that in any draft year... The way I see it, BOTH Emmy and Mursak are the expendable ones...If Eaves return is doubtful, one of those two have a bit more time here than they should. I believe in the end Miller and Eaves will be here over those two...

Ya, why should the Wings draft a TJ Oshie (#24) Matt Niskanen (#28) Steve Downie (#29) James Neal (#33) Marc Edourad Vlasic (#35) Paul Stastny (#44) when Jakub Kindl (#19) is available...Kenny seemed to do very well this last draft, but he blew it in 2005...God forbid he ever finds himself with a top 5 pick. I know the draft is a gamble and a lot of teams drop the puck persay, but all this talk about how the team isn't young and great because of the Wings drafting in the 20's year after year, I find it funny how the one time he is in the teens, he blows it with a wasted player who won't be on this team too much longer....

does anyone know if the topic of realignment is on the CBA's agenda? I was a bit excited with the new alignment and playoff format changing (not that it was perfect)

My opinion of Kenny has indeed change...usually he comes up with excuse after excuse and his over usage of the term "kicked the tires" and "we need to get bigger" followed up by not getting anyone and drafting small euro's was enough for me to punch the monitor more than once every trade deadline/draft day/UFA season.... ....BUT This season, starting on draft day: Martin Frk - 6'0 193lbs Andreas Anthanasiou - 6'0 179lbs Mike McKee - 6'4 232lbs James DeHaas - 6'2 193lbs Rasmus Bodin - 6'6 207lbs ...and these are all kids! They will grow AND gain weight! UFA: Was deep in the hunt for and offered the same if not very similar contracts to Justin Shultz, Ryan Suter, Zach Parise and while waiting he addressed needs up front like grit, Tootoo, better scoring and defensive play in Sammy, signed the real deal back up in Gustavsson, locked up Helm and Abby for years. He solidified the #6 defense spot with Colaiacovo along with taking a gamble on Quincey and a European phenom in Brunner....he was on the final lists for a lot of players including Suter, Semin & Doan...he offered contracts to all of them. He had a verbal agreement with Suter only to be nixed by Suter's family, a decision Suter will soon regret, if not already. He FINALLY got off the Hudler merry go round and cut ties with him...PLUS he was in deep in trade talks for Bobby Ryan, Keith Yandle and Rick Nash. I'd say ya, my opionion change, for once in a long time I wanted to punch the UFA's for choosing somewhere else instead of punching Holland for not doing anything...now all he needs to do is admit he made a mistake signing Franzen and letting Hossa walk and all will be right in the world! (of course with the exception of this lockout debacle...) Holland made me proud to be a Wings fan this summer (as if I wasnt already) and with the prospects coming up, along with that draft class, things look great! I hope he gets Dan DeKeyser under contract to spring and I still wish he had gotten Jeremy Welsh (oh well.) But my opinion is MUCH MUCH better than it has been the last few seasons! Not only is Tootoo a better player than Emmy....he is the best thing we have had to an enforcer since Aaron Downey. Sammy is bette than Hudler.....Brunner will be great....Tootoo is better than Emmy...unfortunately two guys have to go and those two will come from these four: Emmerton, Mursak, Miller, Eaves. I see Emmerton and Mursak bringing more in return in the form of draft picks than Miller/Eaves and with the plethora of young BETTER talent in the wings, Mursak and Emmerton are VERY expendable... Yes, for a season, the Wings get a tad older, but they get much better...Way to go Holland!

I can't help but wonder is for some reason Mr I doesn't make it to see the Grand Opening that it would very appropriate to name it after him..... The Illitch Centre of Entertainment Arena sounds nice.... or affectionately the The I.C.E Arena...

ya, just like the Old School charm of Tiger Stadium he built into Comerica....It will be nothing but a cookie cutter arena based on the new Pittsburgh and Columbus arena's...and it will be named something by the highest bidder regardless of where the HQ is for that bidder...ie Comerica Park HQ'd in Texas. I would love to see an Olympia style arena and I am sticking by my name of Cadillac Centre. (Not only for GM ties but mostly for Antoine Laumet de La Mothe, sieur de Cadillac...founder of Detroit.) One of you guys LONG ago made up a "Olympia" type rendition of a new arena, you shold repost it in this thread.

Yep....Ciccarelli. Its kind of like Dino's career, just less goals. Dino wasn't that fast or talented skill-wise, yet he was always getting abused in front of the net and banged in the garbage goals on rebounds. Honestly, Homer probably had more re-direction goals than Dino, but Dino was a bit tougher and fought for the puck more AFTER he got knocked on his ass. That is where Dino got a ton of his garbage goals, from his ass.