Nightfall

Nick Kypreos ‏@RealKyper Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works. Gotta wonder if the NHLPA is willing to burn a season.

I can assist. Oh please, Saint Fehr has been honest and forthcoming in these negotiations. He cannot and has not sinned. That should sum it up.

Thats the worst copout I have ever heard. In the history of the NHL, the finals have never been delayed a week to allow players to heal.

Care to explain? Sorry, but I don't agree with you. The pens deserved to win that series. The Wings drought in the last two games of that series really killed them. You can't win many games scoring only one goal in each game thats for sure.

I started watching the Wings back in 95. Never even watched hockey before that. That sweep was sickening because I was a new fan. So maybe it holds a bit more importance to me than the 2009 finals did. In 2009 the Pens really did deserve to win that series. They held the Wings to one goal in each of the final two games. The 1995 team was better IMHO and the 1995 series hurt the worst to me. In the end, the better team won both series thats for sure. NJ really did dominate the Wings in 95, but the Pens found a way to get it done in 2009. Gotta give them credit for that. It wasn't like the Wings just rolled over and died in either of those series. They had injuries or were just beat by a better team.

Well, I didn't believe there would be a lockout because I thought it was going to be an easy negotiation. Now, over 100 days into it, I still think there will be a shortened season. At the same time, if the season got canned, I also wouldn't be surprised. Neither side has been rather intelligent or honest in these negotiations.

You could say the same about cusimano_brothers as well. 123 pages and no one is changing their tune. I wouldn't expect this to change either.

Hell, I would like to thank both the NHL owners and players for saving me the cost of going to 2-3 NHL games by this time. That comes to about $400 by the time you factor in tickets, food, gas, parking, and so on. I won't be spending jack s*** on the NHL for the next 3 years at least.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/penguins/45-season-ticket-holders-drop-out-because-of-nhl-lockout-667066/ This was rather depressing. 45 people drop their season tickets but the waitlist is at 9500. I guess that why they think the fans will come back.

I guess I have a different definition of "prospect". Pearce was never a long watched prospect BTW. He was an unsigned and undrafted player coming out of Notre Dame his senior year. He was signed by the Griffins at that time. It wasn't like we signed him when he was a freshman or in juniors. I will agree that he didn't pan out, but to compare him with McCollum is crap. McCollum was drafted in the 1st round and 30th overall. We got Pearce for nothing.

I don't think either side has been negotiating in good faith. Which is why fans should be pissed off at the players and the league for screwing up such a simple negotiation and losing at least 1/2 a season. Sorry, but I don't believe the owners had any plan to lock the players out in September when this was discussed in January. I bet the owners thought a deal could be made. They just didn't expect Fehr to come to the table in late June and then delay until the end of July before handing over his first proposal. Sorry, but the players are not going to get any sympathy from me. The players were making over 70% of the revenues before the 04-05 lockout. Over 70%. Does that seem right to anyone because it certainly doesn't to me. So they went down from 70% to 57%. Fehr calls it huge concessions. To which I respond that it was going to happen. The goose that laid that golden egg died off.

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the 100% thing. What the PA did is documented and verified. I do blame them for delaying the negotiations when the league said they were ready to negotiate in January. You cannot blame the league for requesting talks, while the PA says they need time or they weren't ready. What do you expect the league to do? Demand that the PA show up and start negotiating? In order for there to be a negotiation, you have to have two willing parties. The fact that the PA chose not to be willing is not on the league. As for them talking too long, I will agree that is a problem as well.

Yes there is. Its called "agree to disagree". Some people here believe that the players are not at fault when it comes to the lockout. Others believe differently. Its readily apparent after 100+ pages that neither side is going to give.

Thats why we will have a lockout everytime the CBA expires. Don't want a lockout? Fire both sides leaders and their counsel and the law firms that are employed by them. Bring in fresh blood that knows how to work with people instead of against them.

So, 60% fault to the owners and 40% to the players then. Sounds like my same math.

You do bring up some good points so let me address them. First off, you are 100% correct that I have no idea if Fehr or the players would have negotiated in good faith if the NHL would have started the season on time. That is an assumption on my part as well that we don't know if the players would have come to the table in good faith if that happened. That is another "wasted opportunity" that was pissed away by the league thats for sure. Secondly, I don't blame the PA for this debacle "100%". The fault lies with the ownership more than the players in my mind, about 60% to 40%. I don't blame one side entirely. So lets just put that to bed right there. I do blame them for pissing away the opportunity they had to negotiate though, and everyone should blame them for that. As for the first initial proposals, both sides waited 3 weeks each to deliver their first proposals. Being as that they didn't start until late June, that was a big mistake. Lastly, I have been as harsh on the ownership as I have on the players throughout this entire thread when I have replied. You make statements like I blame the ownership 100%, which is entirely not true. The bias in this thread has always reeked of pro-players standpoint, and I am ok with that. That bias has also equated to anything that is spoken against the players is a lie and a farce. It is very hard for anyone here who is pro-player to even admit that their side has really sucked ass in these negotiations. Its so bad that anyone who says things against the players union is obviously "100%" against the union. I spoke out against one point that I am furious with the players union, and that is pissing away an opportunity to meet early and start negotiating. Its a known fact that the league wanted to meet early and the union dragged its feet until June. Is that right if both sides are negotiating in good faith? The answer is no. Now, since you probably are just dying to hear me say something anti-owners, here we go. Is it bargaining in good faith if one side lowballs the other with a proposal? The answer is no on that as well. That is not a side I would want to bargain with. Of course, my second question will be ignored by many people here and everyone will just focus on the first one because it is anti-players union. Someone else will attempt to misrepresent my stance and say I am 100% for the owners, just because I said something anti player. Lets just stop misrepresenting what people are saying at this stage. It does nothing positive to the conversation. Replacing all the owners and players is never going to happen. We can replace the people that are leading these negotiations though, and that is what needs to happen. Yes, Bettman does what the owners want him to do. Same as Fehr. I believe that both people are poisonous to the negotiating process though. I believe their counsel is also poisonous to the process. A clean slate is the only way that things are going to get better. Leaving one or the other in charge is akin to this whole process repeating again down the road. Oh, and I wasn't defending Bettman. Just like I wasn't defending Fehr for the players taking a hard line. I was merely saying that both sides leaders are doing what their people want them to do. They really shouldn't take the blame solely. You can blame the greedy and inflexible owners and players for this debacle. Their leaders should be second on the list, but since you can't fire the owners and players, you have to fire the leaders.

Fixed it for you

Case in point, look at what everyone here wanted to pay Suter to come to Detroit. I think he was vastly overpaid heading to the Wild. I would not want to hamstring my team for 10 years just to get one player. Still, you had fans here calling for Kenny's head, and they are still calling for it today for not spending a ton of money. Also keep in mind that the ownership voted to give Bettman the ability to have 8 owners support him and to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. So it wasn't like Bettman just walked in and made the decision for them. The owners were fully complicit in that decision. I am sure you already know that though.

Restarting means firing the commissioner and the NHLPA heads. I would even like to see their deputies and counsel fired as well. You want to bring in a new method of thinking? Then you have to get rid of the existing bureaucracies.

I think this is only the second time we have seen eye to eye on something in this thread. I agree 100% with your assessment.

To say that there would or would not have been traction really is just assuming at this stage. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know how negotiations would have went if they started in January like the league wanted to do. To say that good things or bad things would have happened if they did start is just an assumption. One thing is for certain though. There was an opportunity to negotiate in January that Fehr and the players association pissed away. The fans should be upset with the PA for this purely because it was pissing away an opportunity that had potential to make a deal happen and the league to start on time if it was successful. The act of pissing away an opportunity should not go unpunished or forgiven simply because it never happened or the assumption was that it would have never bore fruit. A wasted opportunity is just that, a wasted opportunity. I will not forgive the PA for dragging their feet during these negotiations, and neither should the fan base.

I don't see how torching the season and firing Bettman is going to solve anything at this stage. In order for there to be real traction on the negotiating front, you need to fire the leadership on both sides. Not just Bettman and Fehr, but their leadership teams as well.

Saint Fehr has already risen from the dead once. I read about that in Sunday school. After he and Bettman flush what is left of the NHL down the toilet, I hear all of his fans and constituents will praise him for a job well done while Bettman will take the brunt of the blame for the lockout. Mission accomplished!

Since everyone discounted the Forbes report and 18 teams losing money, and everyone thinks that each club making $3.5 million for the season was plenty for "billionaire owners", there really isn't much to say. Do I believe that the ownership has a right to make more? Yes I do. I would feel the same way if the players were making 43% and went on strike in order to obtain an equal share. The system did need fixing, but I will say this much, the system that Bettman is proposing has fail written all over it. Fehr's plan is a bit better.

Mr. Fehr would have been more than willing to play out another 10 years under the current CBA because the Players were making 57% of the revenues. It was, by and far, a more superior deal to the players. Fehr would have then dragged his feet, like he did when he decided to start negotiating in June/July, and never negotiated a new CBA if they started playing under the current CBA. In order for negotiations to occur and both sides to be engaged, the current deal has to be scrapped. Otherwise, the party that is getting the better deal, will not feel a sense of urgency to negotiate. Not that Fehr knows any kind of urgency when it comes to negotiating. His thumb was planted firmly in his ass until June, and then he sat on it a bit more before giving his first offer to the NHL. As the heads of the NHL and the NHLPA, both Bettman and Fehr have failed the sport of hockey miserably. They have also failed the fans, NHL employees, and every business owner that relies on the NHL games to make a profit or to survive.