Nightfall

I am going to see the Griffins this Friday for sure. I hope this kid is starting in net. We haven't had a great goalie in GR since Howard left, and even he was up in the air until his last year.

I think this is the longest they have met so far in the negotiations.

At this point, I am not concerned when it was proposed. It was verbal, but you have to wonder if Fehr had his fingers in his ears and was posturing for he last week. Either that or the NHL is spreading lies. So lets make that a push. Lets hope this results in a deal by thanksgiving.

I know I have said this in many different threads, but the only money the NHL will be seeing from me is the share of cable TV rights that they will get from be being a cable TV subscriber. I have spent thousands every year on NHL games, travel, merchandise, and so on. Right now, I am so upset that I am not spending a dime on these guys. Enjoy what cut you get per subscriber for cable TV, because that is all you are getting from me and for at least 4-5 years.

Well, thats nice. AT least they are offering a refund. That is much futher than I thought they would go.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/20084/lockout-would-denigrate-winter-classic

Fixed it for you. The NHL or players don't deserve the fans at this stage. I am not spending any money on the NHL for a long time. The only money that the NHL is going to get from me will be the money they get from the cable subsidity.

Yup, which is why they will not refund the difference. At least we will see 24/7 on HBO next season.

Well, now I am really glad that I didn't buy tickets to this event. They will just reschedule this for next season and keep all the money that people spent. There is no way people will get refunds for their tickets. I just know how this is going to play out. Then you have the comerica park rink that won't be built either. Which means all those tickets will need to be refunded.

They will. They will use it to make sure they keep all the tickets sold. Mark my words, the Winter Classic will be rescheduled for next year at the same venue. They will honor all tickets and use that as a way to keep the money in their coffers for another year.

At this point, I don't think either side is really interested in negotiating. Pontificating for the press seems to be higher on their list of things to do.

This is still the funniest thing I have read, and it came from TSN.

This is what you will hear when you call to demand the refund. Yea, you can demand a refund, but they probably won't give it to you. I certainly am glad I did not buy tickets to this event. They were overpriced anyway, and now with the lockout, the NHL and NHLPA can go jump off a very tall building.

Imagine how Blackhawk season ticket holders are feeling now. I have a friend who's sister is a Hawks season ticket holder. They get 4 tickets to every game. The Blackhawks took their regular deposit of half due when the due date hit, keep in mind they were still thinking they were going to be locked out. Now, they are getting checks every two weeks or so for every game missed. So it was like they gave the Hawks a 1/2 year interest free loan they pay off every week. Disgusting!

This really is the right way to go. The NHL and NHLPA need to be told that this kind of behavior, unwillingness to negotiate, and general bullheadedness won't be tolerated. By speaking with your wallets, the fans have a great opportunity to really tell the NHL what they think when they come back. I have already vowed to take every penny that I spent on NHL merchandise and tickets and put it towards something else. I can find something else to spend $1500-$2000 a season on. No more hotels or travel expenses to see games. No more time involved driving to games. No more NHL Center Ice. If we want to be heard, then speaking with our wallets is really going to be the best option.

One thing is for sure.... That is the closest the Maple Leafs will come to the Stanley Cup this year. Yup.... Because there is rumor they will just delay the game until the following year. All tickets will be accepted then. May as well let the NHL have a interest free period with millions to line the coffers for another year.

I agree with your line of thinking, but I also agree with what Johnz96 says. If I was a betting man, I would say that if the Winter Classic gets canned, the safe bet is to say that the season will be canceled. At the same time, we don't know for sure. Its just educated guessing. Depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty kind of guy. I am normally a glass half full guy, but this lockout is making me more and more pessimistic.

I certainly hope they cancel it at this stage. My interest in NHL hockey has went from rabid to non-interest in a few short months. I could really care less at this point if the league impodes. By cancelling the Winter Classic, the league will be returning back to the lockout levels of business in 2005. The fans are tired of being crapped on.

Just a quick note to those of you who I have been interacting with.... First off, I would like to apologize for my crappy behavior. I have sent out a few parting shots at people, and this isn't the way to act on a public forum. As many of you know, I feel strongly about this situation in blaming both sides for their conduct. I also understand that I am in a forum of people who, as a majority, like the NHLPA and what they stand for. While I don't agree with everything everyone says here, there are some good points being made for the NHLPA that I acknowledge. There are also some things which I believe to be incorrect that I have tried to correct people on, but not the right way to do so. Some of the parting shots I have thrown people have not been right and I wouldn't like it if I was put in your shoes. To put it simply, I am going to be tossing in discussion points, but I won't be engaging people in active discussion like I have been. I really have been almost emotionally involved in this discussion because of just how upset I am with the NHL and NHLPA with this whole mess. This lockout has consumed me to a certain point, and that is bad for my health. I have spent time on social networking publicly speaking about the faults of both of these sides and how upset I am with them. This is not the kind of person I am to be honest. This coming from someone who is positive, energetic, a leader, respectable, and most importantly, a real hockey fan. To those of you who I have upset, I apologize. To those of you who are typing up responses to things I have posted here, don't anticipate a reply. I will still be active, but I am really going to knock things down and go low key for a while. Its time I put this lockout and the way I feel about it out of my head and concentrate on something else. Maybe computer games, work, refereeing hockey, or any one of the many things I enjoy doing. This lockout is really upsetting, but its time to move on. Thank you all!

Which is even more questionable why Bettman changed the rules to only need 8 owners to back him in order to initiate a lockout. It should be a majority, not a minority. The hardliners are doing their part to destroy the popularity of NHL hockey, which is bad for everyone.

True, it is not double, but you also cannot count before the lockout either. Clubs were spending 76% of their revenue on salaries and changes had to be made for the long term survival of the league. Remember, this was needed at the time. Player salaries average after the lockout year concessions were 1.4 million. In 2011 they were 2.45 million. I would guess they have gone up in the year after that, but thats 75% higher and we still have another year to tack on which we don't know the numbers for. As for the ROI, you are correct. I am just calculating how much they are making in terms of the asset they own. By the way, making $5 million off a $240 million dollar asset is only 2% of the asset in terms of the profit. If the owner instead took $240 million and put it in an interest baring checking account, he would make 3% on his investment.

I will say this, you have hit the nail on the head with every one of your complaints. At the same time though, as you mentioned, the NHLPA has fault in this which you didn't mention at all. The NHLPA has not been negotiating in good faith either. Their delays with their first proposal (3 weeks) and waiting until the last minute to come to the table after the league said it was ready to start negotiating in January. I have called out the NHL proposal already numerous times. No sense of urgency and dragging things out is not negotiating in good faith. Fehr has been looking at "alternate methods" and I applaud him for doing so. At the same time, if one side is speaking English and the other side comes to the table with an agreement set in Spanish, is that necessarily right? I do get what you are saying. The NHL should be looking at these proposals and be more willing to consider them. What I fault Fehr and the players with is not speaking the same language when they come to the bargaining table. This is where the disconnect lies right here. You would think by now both sides would be speaking the same language and they are not. Bettman's proposals are definitely not what they are being advertised to be. The NHLPA is also guilty of this as well. For instance, in the NHLPA 3rd proposal, the numbers never get to the 50/50 split that the NHLPA makes it out to be. http://espn.go.com/b...tter-to-players None of the players proposals actually make it down to 50/50 in year 2 or 3. So before you talk about misrepresentation, lies, not bargaining in good faith, look on both sides of the ledger. There is plenty of blame to go around. Oh, and I am not surprised that our resident mod "liked" your post. It offered nothing in terms of pointing out these failings of the NHLPA and everything involving the sins of the NHL.

One thing is for certain, its pointless for either of us to reply to each others posts. We definitely see this situation in two different lights. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

Yup, I suppose showing proof that salaries have increased almost two fold since the last lockout is just an opinion. Please keep going back to that though. If my salary doubled in the last 6 years, I would be pretty downtrodden. In the meantime, the asset you talk about is about $240 million, which means the profit of $4-$5 million per season equates to about 1-2% of the asset. Going to tell me that you can't get a better return on investment elsewhere? As I said before, I am backing out of this discussion. Its readily apparent that the numbers if they don't line up to the NHLPA method of thinking, they are incorrect or "unsubstantiated opinion". Lets face facts here, I am not going to be sitting on the same fence as you are. Probably never will. Both sides have had a hand in this lockout and the situation we are in today. It must be nice to live in a fantasy land where the NHL is entirely at fault while the NHLPA walks on water, but I don't have the luxury of having that dream.

I will say you make some valid points, especially on your method of thinking. In my mind, both parties are going to be to blame in this lockout. You say that you don't think the way you do because you support the PA. You support the PA because you think the way you do. I think the same way when it comes to my disdain for both parties and the way they conduct business. It disgusts me, and as much as it disgusts me, I know that I won't be able to change the minds who are firmly on one fence or the other. As I said before, we are going to have to agree to disagree on many of the things we discuss. This isn't a bad thing. We just have two opinions on the way that these negotiations should be run and my thoughts differ from yours. After 20 pages of discussion, this is the way it always will be from the looks of things. With all this being said, let me throw out another thought that has to do with what you mentioned. You are right, I shouldn't expect anyone who likes apples but hates oranges to smash the apples they have. Same goes for the opposite. I mention this because you substitute the NHL for oranges and the NHLPA for apples, and you get the situation we have right here. I cannot expect you or anyone else that matter to change. You have your reasons for being where you are today, just as I do. The likelihood of us meeting in the middle or changing our minds are nill. Even though I hate the owners and the PA for their actions in this, I can't expect people firmly on one side to follow me in my thought process. There is a reason you are where you are at right now. As a hockey fan, I hope this gets situated as quickly as possible. At the same time, my fandom of NHL hockey has taken a hit. This is coming from someone who has followed the Wings since I fell in love with the sport. Both the owners and players are not going to feel my paltry impact on the sport of hockey. $2000 a year on merchandise, tickets, travel, and so on don't make a dent in anything. At the same time, I hope that both sides hear my displeasure. I don't expect you or anyone else to see things the way I do, and its about time I start acting like it. You and others here have done your best to make me see it from your perspective, and that isn't going to happen. I have to just be the guy here to bow out and say, agree to disagree. Don't take it personally, but its just the way that is the best for all of us.