Nightfall

Of course, all the blame goes on Bettman and the league here. While I don't put it past the hard line owners as being part of the problem, you have to hand it to Fehr as well who also refuses to come down from his proposal. When you have two hard line commissioners who are aiming to get as much as possible for their constituents and at any cost, then there is little room to maneuver. While I don't disagree that the NHL is part of the problem instead of part of the solution, the NHLPA leadership has been questionable at best. Fehr has been willing to sacrifice a world series to get what he wants, and its readily apparent he is willing to sit as long as possible to do it again for the NHLPA. We need two sides that are willing to work with each other, not be at ends with each other, which is what we have right now. Hell, I can't think of a time when the NHL and the NHLPA have worked together in relative peace and unity. That starts with the leadership on both sides. Course, it will take another lost season before the two sides realize this and throw these tards out on the street where they belong.

Yup, lets start cancelling the regular season games. Both sides meet for two hours and they got to the point where they "agree to disagree". I guess it is hard to split a $3.3 billion dollar pot. I would like to thank both sides for refusing to compromise in this situation. I would also like to thank both sides for making my decision to not purchase tickets to attend anymore NHL games an easy one. I am pretty pissed. The rampant greed of the NHL and NHLPA have killed the NHL brand as a whole. I hope they stay locked out for many years to come. I will watch KHL and AHL hockey for now. Yes, I will enjoy the games more than the greedy NHL fools that run or play in that league. Fehr and Bettman can both jump off a very tall building.

There is no way we will ever know. Point is that the lack of urgency on one side does not excuse the behavior or attitude. I believe that negotiating early would not have hurt. I agree. They should just get a mother to come in and split everything evenly for them. A professional mother negotiator.

I already unfollowed NHL, NHLPA, and all players. I understand where you are coming from and I already went down the road you suggested when the lockout started. None of these people deserve your support at this stage.

Neither side was concerned about the time frame. I guess they were both wrong. So, your argument was that you didn't believe it. So we provide proof that the league was ready to negotiate early, and this is your response. I really try to take what the NHL and NHLPA say at face value. I guess I don't understand how some people can take what one side says as the truth while taking what the other side says as false.

Not in my view. The NHLPA and the NHL could have started meeting in January to go through everything except the financials. They could have talked realignment. They could have discussed drug testing. Even the financials for the last 4-5 years could have been discussed. Middle of the season or not, the NHLPA drug its feet and waited until the last minute to start negotiations.

I suppose thats one way to look at it.

I already posted a link that showed that the league requested for negotiations to start in January. I also remember ESPN stating that the league was ready to negotiate in January. I don't know how true that was, as it could have been posturing by the league. Still, in most rational people, it would explain why the league waited until July to get together. Here is another by TSN. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=386328

I really don't think that is accurate. I really do believe that people who voice against one side and only one side are pretty much 100% with that side. Sure, I hear some of these people say that they put blame on the other side as well, but when questioned about the opposite sides actions in some respects, they are quick to defend their side. I agree! I would not have put it past Fehr to do that, and I would have supported him for it.

I agree. The point is that neither side can claim that they did everything they could to avoid a lockout. I understand everyone loathing Bettman. I think the ownership would do better with someone else at the helm. That being said, when I look at the big picture, I just don't understand how anyone can side the the NHLPA 100% either. I am about 60% on their side in this right now, but I can't ignore the missteps they have taken through this process.

So if it isn't in their best interest to do so, and that decision results in the league locking them out, isn't that a problem? This last CBA has benefited the players and the rich franchises the most. Of course the side that was benefiting the most was not motivated to negotiate. That happened in the NBA and a lockout was the result last season. Wiped out all games until December. MLB has had the longest labor unity of all the professional sports because of the unity between the players and the league officials. Yes, money is important, but so is labor peace. I could say the same thing for people who are in 100% support of either side. There is plenty of blame to go around here.

I agree with you to an extent. Bettman and the owners really have dug themselves a deep hole here. At the same time, there has to be some unity or cooperation between the NHLPA and the NHL. The NFL, MLB, and NBA leagues and the players associations in those leagues all work together when expanding or moving a franchise. In the NHL, there is a disconnect. Is that Bettman's fault? Is that Goodenow's fault? Is that Fehr's fault? Maybe it is the fault of both sides? I really don't know. All I do know is that without this level of cooperation and unity, the league is going to suffer. The leagues missteps are well documented, but how about the NHLPA waiting until June to negotiate when the league asked them to come to the table in January? I know, fans of the NHLPA will look at that as no problem since no deal has been made yet, but I see it as a lack of respect or cooperation at least. I could name other issues here, but I won't go into detail. The point is that we need unity between the NHLPA and the NHL. Maybe Bettman is the problem. Maybe its time to ditch him and get another leader for the league and that will improve things. Maybe its a culture change as a whole for both sides. Something does need to be done though. Especially if you don't have one.

I agree. At the same time though, we are not back in June negotiating. Fehr didn't go down that road and I am happy he didn't. Where we are now is both sides are willing to work towards the middle As I said before, if the rumors are true and the NHL came up 5% over where they started, and Fehr did come down about 5%, that puts them well within range to make a deal. So why don't both sides just get it done?

This is why you can't take everything the press says for face value. Maybe the last proposal by the league is still valid. Maybe it isn't. There is so much information that the public is not privy to. Which is why taking sides is tough to do.

I agree with you. The NHLPA should not have to rollback existing contracts. They should be paid. I think I am going to sub to hockeystreams.com for KHL action this season. Hell, its $99, but at least I will catch a lot of hockey action this season.

Thanks for providing the source. One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have. This is a good point. I forgot about that little tidbit of information. Still, Fehr could be the bigger man here and come forward with a proposal at this stage. Its readily apparent that the ownership isn't going to man up in this situation and try to play the public relations game instead. The NHLPA could score some big points in public relations by coming to the table on Sunday with a new proposal.

I have to agree with you. Negotiating a CBA involves taking the best proposals from each side and taking small steps forward and meeting in the middle somewhere. As has been said in this thread, two sides whom have a good rapport with each other could hammer out a CBA in 2 hours. Fehr went down on his initial proposal, the NHL did not. Now you mention that Fehr has went down on each and every proposal since the initial one, to which I am going to call you out on because there has been no evidence that Fehr has done that. There has been plenty of discussion on the initial proposals, but each subsequent proposal has not been shared in the level of depth that would bring me to conclude what you are saying. I asked for some sources from you, which you have not been able to reveal. Hell, it would be nice to hear about the subsequent proposals from the NHL as well because I have heard the NHL has come down from their unfair initial proposals with each subsequent proposal. I don't know if that is true or not though, as nothing has been revealed in the press. One thing is certain, the NHLPA has a much more fair proposal initially. The NHL has got to back down from these crazy demands and offer something that is much more fair. Meet in the middle so to speak. Ok, I call bullcrap on that. Bargaining is all about ping pong. The NHL said it gave ground in one of its counterproposals, to which I don't know if that is true or not. But, if true, why isn't the NHLPA giving ground? Or, is the problem more likely a disconnect or lack of trust? I think another full season is a possibility. Both sides have got to work together to make it happen. So far, I just don't get the impression that they want to work together.

The point is that we are taking Gary's word in that they are unified. Just as when Fehr says the players are unified, you know there are some that are against what is going on. With hundreds of players, there are some people who won't stand for it. I can only imagine that 4-5 owners are going to probably be against the lockout. Illitch would be one of them.

Being as that all owners voted unanimously to lock the players out, I really don't know what to believe. The rich franchises have benefited the most in the last six years. So why would those owners vote to lock the players out if they have done so well? Teams like Detroit and Toronto are seeing good profits. Why vote to lock the players out then? It really makes no sense unless Gary was lying when he said the vote was unanimously. This! Any talk is better than no talk at this point. I am not optimistic either, but at least its a step in the right direction.

No offer was tabled, but the NHL was on record saying that they were ready to start the process in January. I remember reading about it, but I didn't find much on it other than snippets of info. --- Back in January, NHL fans were assured initial negotiations regarding the next round of NHL collective bargaining would begin following the All-Star Game. That subsequently changed to a vague point later in the regular season,to some point following the Stanley Cup Playoffs It’s believed there’s been some quiet talk behind the scenes between the two sides , but the real negotiations probably won’t start until mid-July at the earliest, allowing time for the NHL Awards, entry draft weekend, and the opening week of unrestricted free agency. In mid-March, NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman professed to be unconcerned (“I’m not worried. At all”) over when negotiations would start, saying his side was ready whenever the PA was ready to talk. --- http://spectorshockey.net/blog/review-of-recent-cba-news-may-17-2012/

I really don't think we will have a season. Both sides are just bullheaded enough to not make any concessions. This is why I won't be puting any money in the hands of the league or players anytime soon. Even if the league does come back, the extent of my contribution will be my cable TV package and thats it. I have read the same thing as you have. Fans are tired of the retoric coming from both sides. They are tired of the lack of cooperation. They are also tired of the greed. This should have been a very easy CBA negotiation. Instead, we have a money grab and two entirely different financial plans. Maybe even soon to be 3 if and when Fehr plays the luxury tax card. Sure, the fans will come back. They may even come back in droves. The NHL has lost one paying fan though for the next 5-6 years. They probably will lose many more the longer the lockout goes.

Keep pressing that "I win" button until your finger falls off. It still doesn't change the fact that you are siding with a union that has little to no interest in playing hockey this season. Sure, they aren't as bad as the owners, but they don't deserve your unwaivering loyalty.

Sorry man, but if the shoe fits..... If there is a reading comprehension problem, I believe we are both somewhat at fault here. Hell, it took two separate posts to explain my position before you said, "It's fine". Now, either that means it didn't register (comprehension) or you were being difficult because it was a position you didn't agree with. Probably a bit of both. The major economic points of the initial proposals are well documented. Anything that followed, to which there are 4-6 other proposals, were really never covered. Google searches really don't turn up anything on those. I asked for your sources, to which you have none. I was under the impression that you were reading things I wasn't, but apparently that isn't the case. Yes, you have put together a fairly consistent and coherent explanation of your position. That is simply this..... The owners put forward a lowball initial offer Bettman and the owners are morons The NHLPA offer they put together was excellent The NHLPA obviously is more in touch with economics than the ownership Therefore, the fault lies with the owners as to why we don't have NHL hockey this season Make no mistake, the NHLPA has some fault in this lockout right now. As a fan of hockey, it infuriates me to see one side of the negotiation wait until June to negotiate when the league was ready in January. It also infuriates me to see both sides dig into their positions and not vary much in their proposals. No concessions? No talks scheduled for weeks at a time? There seems to be no trust between Bettman and Fehr. These are all problems. So, while you continue to ***** and whine about Bettman and the ownership for screwing the fans out of a season of NHL hockey.... Take a long good look at the NHLPA and the screwjob they gave the fans as well. Make no mistake, neither side getting out of these negotiations looking pretty.

I am really trying to be obvious here without insulting you... Once again, I didn't say that Fehr was asking for a luxury tax system. I said its possible now that the lockout has started that he might include that in his proposals. Just as you are surmising on what the ownership is doing without any real proof as to how they feel or what they really are doing without a shred of proof. So, I guess in your mind it is ok to surmise that the ownership is trying to break the league. Not because there is any proof behind what they are thinking, but because you suspect that is so. Yet, I suspect that Fehr just MIGHT start pushing a luxury tax because he mentions it all the time and that is what worked for baseball, but I am being demonized for mentioning it as even a remote possibility. I really think you need to take a step back from the NHLPA fanbase. As for the proposals, I haven't read any news source that even glances over the other proposals other than the initial ones that the league and players submitted. There have been at least 4-6 others that have been mentioned, but no details were released. You made it seem like you read these in detail, to which in fact you did not.

Please provide a link or source to what I bolded. If you know where the proposals each side has given, including each subsequent one after the initial one, I would love to read them. It would go a long way towards seeing if the league came down from their demands or where the players ended up. As for what you bolded, I think you need to go back and re-read what I said. I said that I have no idea if Fehr is going to ask for a luxury tax system or not. I am just merely suggesting that Fehr mentions it enough that he could make that an option during the negotiations. The point is that we don't know for sure. Course, you have read every proposal that has been released supposedly or you know where to find them. I look forward to you releasing that information to me so I can read up on them as well. Since you are making suppositions, I can do that as well.....oh wait.....it was against the NHLPA. That was the problem. Of course the supposition I made about the league was left unbolded because you agree with it. Ok, got it. As for the owners, if they don't want to break the league like you say you believe, then you should have at least a little faith that they are going to bargain in good faith with the league.