gcom007

He sure didn't last year...

I very much agree. I don't think we've seen the best of Miller yet. And I'm really not surprised about Leino. I had a feeling this year would go like that, hence why I said I'd be thrilled if he got to 15 goals throughout the off-season. Coming up from GR in the middle of the season is far different than being an everyday guy on an NHL team with a legit role to play other than plugging an injury gap. It takes tremendously more physically and mentally to make it in the NHL every day as opposed to as a minor league call up. I hope he takes this summer to address his weaknesses and get his head straight and I'd gladly give him a training camp to show how hard he worked over the summer and how bad he wants it. I think he's got it in him and I hope in this rookie season he's learned the lesson it takes to motivate him to work out the kinks this summer. I still think we need to be patient...

Miller. I've been one of the few trying to defend Leino and be patient but I'm pretty sure this season is a wash for him at this point. I still think he deserves the summer and training camp before we determine whether to dump him or not. I think he knows far better now than before what it takes to play in this league and that may be a good thing. If he addresses some physical weaknesses over the summer and gets his head straight, he still has the potential to come in and contribute next year. But again, I don't think he'll be coming around this year, and it'll take a summer of hard work and focus to come in and earn a spot next year.

1 goal, 7 assists, 13 games. About 50 Point pace. Not bad. Funny, I never said it was. What about his totals before he got injured? 2 goals, 4 assists, 11 games. About 45 Point pace. Not bad. I never said that was bad either. What seems odd about that to me is that I'm pretty sure I said he'll average 40-45 points per season with a top end of 50 points. Yep, I definitely did. So based on the statistical evidence we can observe from the last few years as well as what we can observe this year, I believe there is far more TANGIBLE EVIDENCE to suggest that it's not so outlandish to think he's a 40-45 point guy with a top end of 50. What I have continued to say is that the guy is overpaid for those numbers, and I stand by that. What do you want me to say? How about... "Good job Flip for putting up exactly the kind of numbers I expect you to put up based on your skill set." ...I guess that it's no matter that I think those numbers aren't really worthy of a 5-year $3 million/season contract on a team that is already very strong defensively. So let's add to the first statement to make it more realistic... "Good job Flip for putting up exactly the kind of numbers I expect you to put up based on your skill set. It's too bad you're still underachieving based on your current cap hit. Oh yeah, you're still not providing any help in the goal scoring department. And yes, that is the department most in need of help right now for this team." Again, my number one biggest beef is the lack of goal scoring/points despite his $3 million salary on a team that is already very strong defensively. He's redundant, overpaid and his skill set and history suggests that he is not the guy to fill our hole in the goal-scoring department. Until he puts up numbers at a 60-70 point pace and starts scoring more goals throughout an entire season, I'm never going to be happy he's making $1 million more money than Eaves and Bertuzzi combined. Believe me, I'll be happy if he ever becomes the player you seem to think he'll become, as I don't believe he has the offensive skill set necessary to do so, furthered by the fact that he's yet to actually show that he can do it down the stretch. He's always been a streaky player. I'm not going to get overly excited about him putting up numbers that I fully expect him to put up based on his skill set when I still don't believe those numbers to be worthy of a $3 million cap hit. But hey, have fun continuing to think I hate him and am just being negative for thinking he's not going to be an 80 point guy. After all, it makes so much more sense to think he's going to be a 60-80 point guy when he's never scored at such a pace with any sort of consistency at all, including this year. And what's this year? This is his breakout year, right? But wait...what number are we on now, because wasn't last year his breakout year too?

Leino will have to play real well to keep Miller and Maltby away. I don't think it'll happen. I still think the kid could come around maybe even next season if he's not shipped off, but I think this year's shaping up to be a lost cause for him. He's going to need to take the summer to refocus, work on his weaknesses and come back strong. If he does that, it'll be a good lesson for him to learn and hopefully he can make the most of a training camp opportunity, as that's likely the last opportunity he'll get as a Red Wing. Eaves is going to be the guy to watch. I think he's just going to keep getting better. I want him signed up for awhile real soon!

I don't think we're as far off on this as you think. I think he's a 2nd line guy on many teams, but not the Wings. Granted, that takes into account the lack of goal scoring touch and our utter need for that. I don't think comparing him with Z this year is at all fair. I don't know what's with Z, but this is clearly an off year for him while it continues to be average for Flip. Flip's on pace to put up similar numbers to what he's done the last few years, which I think is about his peak. I think 40-45 is his average with a peak at 50 if he's real lucky. And it'll be the least flashy 50 points ever. He does a lot out there when it comes to defending our end, but again, we've got a lot of guys that do that for far less money and they can actually score goals and put up 40-50 points a year too. I've been saying all along, it's not that Flip is so bad so much as he's overpaid and REDUNDANT as you said. We're 7-6 since he's returned, been shut out twice, and are scoring a few more goals, though we also go some guy named Zetterberg back shortly after Flip. I'm not saying he doesn't help, but I don't think he's incredibly consequential to our success either, again because he's mostly redundant. Like you, I say I'd trade his $3 million away for a guy who can score. Defense is his biggest strength and that's not an issue for us. We need goals. He is not a goal scorer. That's just too much to pay for a guy who can't be counted on for goals.

1. Irrelevant. 2. That's what the regular season is for when you're a rookie playing behind a champion veteran. 3. If Holland felt the same as Babcock, I don't think Osgood would be saying anything. 4. He's been great, but he's still a rookie. Holland will be hands off if Osgood gets injured or if Babcock gets Osgood going and makes it clear that he's the starter down the stretch. Again, there's a huge divide between ANY rookie and the guy who's been the best playoff goalie the last two years en route to two Stanley Cup Finals appearances, a Cup and a Conn Smythe-worthy performance.

Last year, yes, absolutely. And Osgood is responsible for that, though I still do believe that Babcock's handling of the situation perpetuated the problem until Holland stepped in. This year, I don't think that's the case at all. Osgood has not had a consistently bad stretch. He's had bad games but every goalie does, and he's bounced back well, as he's done throughout his career. He had quite a few personally great games early on as well that were spoiled by the teams utterly miserable play. But he hasn't been given a chance to prove anything one way or the other since going down with the flu. Again, what can you honestly say about a guy's play when he's going so long between starts? It was bad when it was 1-2 weeks let alone a month. It's incredibly unfair of Babcock or anyone to suggest one game after a month on the bench is a "chance" or an "opportunity." That's completely ridiculous. "This was an opportunity for (Osgood) and I thought we gave him real good support and Howie (Jimmy Howard) will start in Minneapolis (on Thursday)," Babcock said. From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100120/SP...s#ixzz0dKZcQagg Listen, again, I'm not trying to take anything away from how well Howard's playing, but the way Babcock's throwing Osgood under the bus over it all is absurd. This is absolutely bigger than what's happening on the ice. Even the press isn't mincing words on the matter any more, as it's been widely suggested that Babcock and Osgood don't get along. And considering Osgood is one of the most easy-going guys around, it's not hard to imagine where the issues started... "We’ve all seen coach-player rivalries that have boiled over. Scott Mitchell wasn’t thrilled with Wayne Fontes and punctuated his dislike with a botched Halloween costume that made its way onto Channel 4. Paul Coffey and Scotty Bowman had such a contentious relationship that Scotty left Coffey off his ballot for the 50 best players in hockey history -- and had no problem making that fact public. And Ben Wallace had an issue with Rick Carlisle … and Larry Brown … and Flip Saunders. That’s all context for what we have now with Osgood and Mike Babcock. To be fair, Babcock hasn’t publicly ripped Osgood. But he hasn’t had to. Starting Howard for 12 straight games and benching Osgood for almost a month pretty much said it. Osgood grumbled a bit about losing his edge by watching so many games. Then Tuesday, it went beyond that. After Osgood had a so-so game in Washington, Babcock indicated that Howard would start Thursday in Minnesota because the Red Wings need points in their quest to get into the Western Conference playoffs. When he heard that, Osgood said, “I've gotten him a lot of points. I helped him to the finals twice and know how to win."" http://www.freep.com/article/20100120/SPOR...-but-will-Wings This boils down to pride for both of these men. Neither has handled the situation well, but Osgood should never have had to deal with it in the first place. But hey, no big deal...we've got a rookie playing well in the regular season. So what if he's never played a playoff game? I mean, Osgood's only been the best playoff goalie the last two years... Who cares about 3 Cup rings???

And that's likely when Ken Holland will step in again and fix the situation. Like last year. That's what GM's do when they see their coaches making stupid decisions.

I'll be happy to re-sign Eaves and Bertuzzi to reasonable deals.

And I'm still looking forward to June.

You're doing a good job of demonstrating why people like you are always wrong. Legace played well in October. He DID NOT play well down the stretch. Furthermore, Legace also proved how effective he was in the playoffs the previous year in which he was TERRIBLE. CAREER BACKUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who knew? People with a shred of common sense AND an understanding of the historical context of a situation. I never said that it's impossible for Howard to succeed this year in the playoffs. But I'm not convinced yet either. I haven't seen it, and neither have you. We have no idea. So while you cite examples of some legendary goalies (and Cam Ward), I'm going to go with the "90% of the time" safe-bet and say it's probably not the best idea to pin your hopes on a rookie when you also have a guy with 3 Cup rings who just took the team to the Cup finals two years in a row. June.

Ha!!! Believe me, after 5 years of not being wrong, I have nothing to feel desperate about. I can't wait to see how this conversation goes down in June!

I've been saying it for awhile, they'll finish in 4th or 5th. Count on it. Too many people panic for no logical reason. We're doing great to be where we're at with all of our injuries. Every team should be scared of this team come April.

That is true in this instance, but go back and review the video on them all. Many of them might as well be secondary assists as they're most certainly not "playmaker" assists. Someone described it very well recently though I don't remember who. They said something like Flip gets a lot of credit for just "existing" out there as he doesn't make spectacular plays oftentimes when he's getting these assists. When he makes a pass in the neutral zone to a guy who skates into the zone on his own and makes a great shot for a goal, should I get real excited for Flip getting a point? I'm not saying we should take it away from him, but he's racked up many of his points recently making average passes that someone else ends up turning into a scoring play. Not always, but not rarely either. It's not like this guy is getting Datsyuk-like assists where he makes a brilliant pass to create a play. Again, just look at the video... I'm not saying the guy's horrible either though. I'm saying the guy is NOT worth $3 million. I don't care what AussieWing and Z D whatever say. They have no tangible evidence to suggest he's as good as they wish he was or think he will be. It always boils down to "he's set to have his breakout year," or "he'll be a much bigger scoring threat....soon...." I just want to know when? The guy doesn't score goals. He has 3. Eaves has 7. We're paying Patrick Eaves $500K. Eaves doesn't get as much ice time as Flip, nor the power play time. Early on he barely got any ice time at all when he dressed at all. Look at Bertuzzi. 14 goals, 14 assists, $1.5 million. He's injury prone and he's stayed healthy too. You can say he's been injured which is true, but if you break it down to points per game, Bertuzzi's got a goal per game rate that's as good as Flips point per game rate. If we double Flips goals he's still near the bottom of our team in scoring, and that comes if we do nothing to account for anyone else's injuries. Proportionally or not, he's near the bottom for goals. We need goals from everyone let alone guys we play $3 million a year. I'm sorry, but I think it's absolutely ludicrous to pay a guy $3 million a year who doesn't score goals, is an average playmaker at best. He has solid defensive skills, but we have plenty of guys with solid defensive skills, and they can actually score goals too. I think it's ludicrous to continue suggesting that he's going to break out into some scoring threat. He does not have what it takes. I don't care how much his fanboys like him, until he starts playing even close to a level worthy of his contract, he's going to take a lot of crap from people.

Yes, that sounds about right. Conveniently, 3/4 (probably more...) of this board has been wrong as well. Like I said, I pitched a fit about Legace in October. I was never a member of the 3/4 who said he was ready. I was one of the one's people like you ripped on for not agreeing with you. And in the end, I was right. Just like every other year. Did you ever stop to think that those of us who aren't so quick to celebrate career-backups, 43 year olds and rookies might actually be on to something??? Maybe you should read that last sentence again...considering 3/4 of you have been wrong every year while some of us keep getting it right every year.........

He hasn't been bad at all, but he's never been as good as many say. People hype up his secondary assists like he scored a goal. Bottom line to me, he's not worth $3 million. Not even close. He would get far grace from people like me if he wasn't making $3 million a year. Well, that and the overzealous fanboys get pretty annoying at times...

For the record, I've been quite critical of Babcock's handling of the goaltending since his first season here, however, I've never suggested that he's a horrible coach. I think he's great in almost every way and there's no other guy I'd want coaching the Wings. But I think he absolutely struggles with the goaltending. For me, it goes right back to Manny Legace which was one of the most epically stupid management/coaching decisions I've witnessed with this team. I was not one of the bandwagon people cheering Legace along all year. I said all along that it was a terrible mistake and that we'd be sorry and in the end, we were. I didn't like the way the Hasek situation went in 2007, not in that Hasek shouldn't have started and played poorly throughout at all, but he wasn't playing at the same level he once did and it was obvious to me at least that it was a volatile situation. I wasn't convinced then and I'm more convinced now that Babcock's lack of "tact" perhaps in dealing with guys didn't have something to do with Hasek's struggles in a must-win game 6. We had everything going against us that year and I'm not blaming the loss on him or Hasek at all when it all shakes down, but I still think the Hasek situation could've been stabilized better. He did fairly well in 2008 with Hasek struggling and Osgood excelling. I don't blame him for going with Hasek in the playoffs, and it appeared he did so with the right idea of a "short leash" given Hasek's age and struggles. He moved to Osgood and rode him out to a Cup. Last year, I've already expressed how I feel. I think he pushed a lot of wrong buttons after Osgood got off to a slow start which perpetuated the problem. I'm not letting Osgood off the hook on it, but in the end, it wasn't Babcock who solved it. It was Holland who stepped in, took over and fixed the problem. If left to Babcock's methods and decisions, Conklin likely would have started and not to knock him, but I think it's highly unlikely that he would've had the same Conn Smythe-worthy performance Osgood did in practically carrying us through huge injuries to Game 7 of the Cup Finals. And this year, I don't think he's doing Osgood or Howard right. I think Howard should be starting more often so long as he keeps playing like this, but Osgood needs more starts. Babcock also needs to avoid sending mixed messages in the press which he has absolutely done thus far this season. As much as I do think Osgood should keep his mouth shut, I think he's reacting to Babcock who has said some things in the press he probably shouldn't as well while keeping starts incredibly unbalanced if Osgood was just a lowly career-backup let alone a goalie on the cusp of 400 wins with 3 Cup rings. That's what it boils down to for me. Like I said, I like Babcock a lot as a coach, but with the goaltending, from day one, he's frustrated me. The Hasek years were mostly fine to be fair (though it's tough to screw up a 1-2 punch of Osgood and Hasek...), but the Legace year and these last two years frustrate me. Nothing will ever compare to the Legace year, as that still just makes my blood boil, but to think of what could've happened last year and how it's going this year...it's frustrating and I don't like it at all. And call me radical or ridiculous, but I haven't been wrong about a goaltending situation since Babcock's been here. Everything I've said through the season has come true in the end. I don't spew nonsense to spew nonsense. You may not agree, but I'm just saying, I've got a good track record on this matter... Legace: MISTAKE!!! MISTAKE!!! MISTAKE!!! '07 Hasek: Volatile situation, showing signs of age and inconsistency, still can be great, but not the safe bet he once was... '08 Hasek - Showing signs of age big time, inconsistent, you could start Osgood, but sure, start Hasek, he's a legend, but keep him on a short leash considering All Star, two-time Cup winner Osgood is the backup, and I even said throughout the second half that I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Osgood finish things for us down the stretch. '09 Osgood: "he'll be fine in the playoffs, quote me on it in June..." I never denied his regular season struggles, but I never wrote him off for a second.

Draper's got a year left and he signed his deal after he turned 35 so we have his cap no matter what. He's going nowhere most likely. I think Maltby, Lidstrom and Holmstrom will likely sign up for one more year. Holmstrom might end it if the injuries continue to haunt him towards seasons end and/or if we were to win a Cup. As much as people dog on Maltby, he's a good guy to have around at his price point. I doubt he'll be a "first priority" guy and we might not have the money, but if we've got space available and spots open (more possible than some think...) he'll definitely get signed for $750k. Bottom line, I could see these guys all wanting to give it another year considering Osgood and Draper will still be around and the team will likely be as good (which I still think is GREAT down the stretch) or better next year. I do think it would mean something for that crew to go out together as they are the last of the '90's Wings.

Facts? You just quoted save percentage to me, a single stat, to suggest that I'm wrong. What you just did is called "cherry-picking facts," and it utterly fails at addressing the whole of the matter.

Oh, Babcock definitely did something...some people might call it the wrong thing. Certain coaches may excel at managing many parts of the game. Some such at others. Goaltending management has never been Babcock's strength, especially as a Wings coach. This shouldn't be hard to recall...

It bothers me having to post things that have been so widely presented in the press and even discussed here in the past...extensively discussed. I'm not going to do homework for people with selective memories. I will remind them that the evidence is there and easily available via google's extensive search options. But they know what I'm talking about anyways. The evidence isn't really the issue. It's not like these people really forget. It's very, very simple to see that last year was Osgood's worst season and the only example in his long career of such a season like it. It's also incredibly easy to see that this season has not gone at all like last season despite how much people have imagined it has. This is blatant bias, plain and simple. Howard's played well, but the idea that Osgood has played as poorly as some suggest he has is not an idea rooted in reality.

I won't deny that Osgood was terrible last year. The fact that it went on so long was questioned. That question was put to rest eventually, by Ken Holland who took over and ultimately resolved the situation. Look it up.

It didn't work last year. Ken Holland worked.

I couldn't pick between Bert and Eaves. I love that Bert's getting another shot and starting to prove himself again and I think he'll finish the season (as in playoffs) strong. I love Eaves because he's under the radar, young, cheap and a hard worker who's making the most of a great opportunity at a career restart. I hope he stays a Wing for a long time. May's a fun guy to have around, but eh... Williams, who knows? He's been injured, but eh...yeah, but eh...