gcom007

I think Babcock is the best coach for the Wings job no doubt. He's not perfect, but he's still fairly young. I think in time he needs to improve certain dynamics issues within the system and while it seems he's ironed out the defense, one could suggest that we've struggled at times defensively under his watch, particularly considering the strong group of guys we have, there's really no excuse for that more often than not. And as I've said quite often lately, I think the weakest area of his game has to do with goalie management. It's been my major complaint since day 1 that Babcock has a knack for making less than solid decisions regarding the goaltending. I mean, really, right off the bat when he named Legace the starter in October up to now with the lack of balance between Howard and Osgood, I think Babcock has yet to really iron out this area of his coaching methods.

Wait, what? Is it just me or has Howard produced 1 more point than Osgood in their last 10 starts??? Howard at 11, Osgood at 10. 5-4-1 vs. 4-4-2. So, ummmm, huh???

Last ten games: Chris Osgood: 4-4-2 - sv.%: .915 - GAA: approx. 2.3 I don't think those are horrible numbers considering he's going over a week between starts lately and blatantly playing tougher teams. And if you don't think there's something to be said for getting more starts and thus finding a groove in order to play better, you're out of your mind. Babcock: "Ozzie just has to battle hard every day in practice and when he gets his next opportunity, make good on it." That kind of talk chafes Osgood a bit. "I know how to do that," he said. "I don't think I have to prove that. I know how to play, I just have to play -- that's all there is to it. It's not a matter of earning an opportunity. You have to get into some games and get into a groove and then I can play like I can. It's not that I don't know how to do it. "But if you don't play, it's impossible to get to that point. I'm a goalie, OK, and I've been playing for 20-some years since Juniors. What I say (about goaltending) is closer to the facts than what he (Babcock) would say."

Have you watched hockey the last 5-8 years? Get back to me when Howard starts slumping. Osgood's not one to have a bad attitude and he battles, but if things keep getting uglier between he and Babcock, it absolutely will not be for the best for the team.

Jimmy Howard's last ten starts: 5-4-1 Points: 11 Chris Osgood's last ten starts: 4-4-2 Points: 10 Oh really? Think about the last ten starts for the two goalies and get back to me on "the Wings can't afford the luxury..." What luxury is that? It sure isn't showing in the stats of who's winning and collecting points for this team. And the Edmonton and Dallas losses are squarely on Howard's shoulders. Edmonton's the worst team in the West and Dallas is hardly Chicago. Osgood's two weakest games in the last ten were against Chicago and Calgary in which he gave up 3 goals in each, which is hardly horrible. In Chicago he still posted a .914 sv.%. And both of those teams are good teams, including Chicago which is one of the best teams in the league. Something else happened in those two games though too. I mean, something didn't happen. We got shutout. I'm really not trying to take anything away from Howard's play, but when it really shakes down, he hasn't outplayed Osgood near to the extent that many are suggesting, especially when it comes to putting up points, not to mention his easier schedule and the benefit of getting more starts. It's downright stupid to let Osgood rot on the bench like this. It has already hurt us, and it's not on Osgood. Again, this is blatant mismanagement by Babcock.

Osgood was the only reason we didn't get blown out more often than not in October. There were many games where the team let Osgood down in a huge way. The Phoenix and Colorado games in particular were shameful examples of how the team let Osgood, who played nothing short of great, down. They utterly and completely gave those games away. And look at the game by game. Osgood hasn't given up enough goals in his games lately to get too worked up. He hasn't let in more than 3 goals since that Toronto debacle which wasn't on him at all. His GAA over his last 10 games played is going to be in the low 2's I'd think, probably 2.2-2.3. That's hardly bad. Again, compare it to last year when 4 goals against was almost a given and 5 or 6 goals against wasn't even surprising. And on that note, here's the thing, Osgood hasn't played bad lately! He hasn't played as well as he'd like and sure, he'd like a goal back here and there, but I think Osgood is absolutely right in saying you need more starts to play at that level. It doesn't matter who you are, you're not going to play your best when you're going a week or more between starts. You see how Brodeur would or Roy would have handled that. And more so, Osgood has given Babcock at least two examples of great games that certainly qualify as "getting something going" where Babcock has said after the game, "Osgood played real great but Jimmy's starting the next game." That's a major inconsistency on Babcock's part at this point given comments he's made in the press, hence why Osgood fired right back on the matter. Osgood always battles, but he's not one to openly criticize a coach and question there knowledge. He's pissed, and he has a right to be. What motivation does Osgood have to "prove himself" when he's done so throughout his career and had great games only to still get sent to the bench for another week or more? Again, this is absolutely poor goalie management. I've been saying it for a month now and it's slowly coming to a head. I'm not worried about scoring, but I'm definitely starting to worry about goaltending.

Take a look at the starts this season. Pay attention to November 7 against the Leafs. That was the beginning of Jimmy Howard starting. The three previous games Osgood played great, posting a shutout. I know we all likely blocked the Toronto game from our heads, but if we can bring it back, we'll likely recall that the game wasn't Osgood's loss. It may have just been one of the worst games the team played all year. It was Lebda's worst game for sure, which as we all know, can be dreadful. Basically, that game wasn't on Osgood as even CBC lamented repeatedly, but he's gotten the boot since. Also, pay mind to the October 27 game against Vancouver. He gets pulled right away after allowing 2 goals on 4 shots. s***ty any way it goes, crap defense or not. But how does he respond? A shutout between two .950+sv% games. Amazing what happens when you give the guy a chance. Too bad they let the Toronto disaster which Osgood really had no hand in shift the course of things. No surprise really that Osgood is frustrated. Pay close attention to the second stat colum which is goals against. Aside from that Toronto game, he's not getting blown out anywhere recently. If he had been given a game to get ready for Chicago, I think we would've won that game on the strength of his goaltending. He still posted a .914 that game despite a couple soft goals. But again, he's not playing! He's not getting the chance to get into a groove and then they stick him in against one of the most potent teams in the league with a battered team in front of him. And Babcock really has the audacity to call him out over it? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. And again, some people gotta get serious about the level of difficulty in the teams Howard's facing compared to Osgood. Osgood's getting the tougher teams for the most part as is blatantly illustrated, but he's got to face them going a week or more between starts. Come on people... Compare these numbers to Osgood's 2008/09 numbers: http://redwings.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id...mp;view=gamelog Again, NO COMPARISON! I really am not trying to take anything away from Howard as he's had a real solid season so far, but it's still no reason to continually leave Osgood hanging on the bench. I don't care how cool Osgood is mentally, the guy is obviously frazzled, and rightfully so. As has been said, I don't recall a time where he's ever seemed this pissed off about a situation. It stands to reason then that it's a justified frustration. The guy is not one to run his mouth or cause drama. BALANCE! 2009/10: Osgood's Starts: Dec 20 '09 DET @ CHI L 3 35 32 .914 0 0 60:00 2 1 0 0 Dec 12 '09 DET @ NSH W 2 35 33 .943 0 0 60:15 1 1 0 0 Dec 05 '09 DET @ NJD O 3 26 23 .885 0 0 65:00 3 0 0 0 Nov 27 '09 CGY @ DET L 3 17 14 .824 0 0 60:00 3 0 0 0 Nov 23 '09 DET @ NSH L 3 25 22 .880 0 0 58:39 1 2 0 0 Nov 20 '09 FLA @ DET O 2 20 18 .900 0 0 60:38 2 0 0 0 Nov 07 '09 DET @ TOR L 5 28 23 .821 0 0 59:56 4 1 0 0 Nov 05 '09 SJS @ DET W 1 34 33 .971 0 0 65:00 1 0 0 0 Nov 03 '09 BOS @ DET W 0 29 29 1.000 1 0 60:00 0 0 0 0 Oct 31 '09 DET @ CGY W 1 21 20 .952 0 0 59:28 1 0 0 0 Oct 27 '09 DET @ VAN 2 4 2 .500 0 0 7:05 2 0 0 0 Oct 22 '09 DET @ PHX O 3 33 30 .909 0 0 61:39 2 1 0 0 Oct 17 '09 COL @ DET O 3 29 26 .897 0 0 64:54 3 0 0 0 Oct 15 '09 LAK @ DET W 2 26 24 .923 0 0 60:00 2 0 0 0 Oct 13 '09 DET @ BUF L 5 22 17 .773 0 0 32:46 4 1 0 0 Oct 10 '09 WSH @ DET W 2 24 22 .917 0 0 59:56 1 1 0 0 Oct 08 '09 CHI @ DET W 2 34 32 .941 0 0 59:56 1 1 0 0 Oct 02 '09 STL @ DET L 4 23 19 .826 0 0 59:07 3 1 0 0 Regular Season 18 7 6 4 46 465 419 .901 2.72 1 0 1,014 Howard's Starts: Dec 28 '09 DET @ CBJ O 1 40 39 .975 0 0 63:12 1 0 0 0 Dec 26 '09 CBJ @ DET W 1 29 28 .966 0 0 59:54 1 0 0 0 Dec 23 '09 CHI @ DET L 3 31 28 .903 0 0 59:58 2 1 0 0 Dec 19 '09 DET @ DAL L 4 21 17 .810 0 0 59:33 4 0 0 0 Dec 17 '09 TBL @ DET W 0 30 30 1.000 1 0 60:00 0 0 0 0 Dec 14 '09 PHX @ DET W 2 32 30 .938 0 0 59:55 2 0 0 0 Dec 11 '09 ANA @ DET W 2 27 25 .926 0 0 60:44 2 0 0 0 Dec 09 '09 STL @ DET L 1 26 25 .962 0 0 59:29 1 0 0 0 Dec 06 '09 DET @ NYR W 1 29 28 .966 0 0 60:00 1 0 0 0 Dec 03 '09 EDM @ DET L 4 36 32 .889 0 0 60:00 4 0 0 0 Nov 30 '09 DAL @ DET W 1 30 29 .967 0 0 60:00 1 0 0 0 Nov 28 '09 DET @ STL W 3 35 32 .914 0 0 64:35 3 0 0 0 Nov 25 '09 ATL @ DET L 2 25 23 .920 0 0 58:26 1 1 0 0 Nov 21 '09 DET @ MTL W 2 18 16 .889 0 0 64:57 2 0 0 0 Nov 18 '09 DAL @ DET L 3 32 29 .906 0 0 58:45 1 2 0 0 Nov 14 '09 ANA @ DET W 4 23 19 .826 0 0 60:00 2 2 0 0 Nov 12 '09 VAN @ DET W 1 32 31 .969 0 0 60:00 0 1 0 0 Nov 11 '09 DET @ CBJ W 1 26 25 .962 0 0 60:00 1 0 0 0 Oct 29 '09 DET @ EDM O 5 33 28 .848 0 0 65:00 3 2 0 0 Oct 27 '09 DET @ VAN W 2 22 20 .909 0 0 52:50 0 2 0 0 Oct 24 '09 DET @ COL L 2 22 20 .909 0 0 59:21 2 0 0 1 Oct 13 '09 DET @ BUF 1 15 14 .933 0 0 27:14 1 0 0 0 Oct 03 '09 DET @ STL L 5 32 27 .844 0 0 58:22 2 3 0 0 Regular Season 23 12 8 2 51 646 595 .921 2.26 1 0 1,352

Howard's been letting in more and more weak goals lately too. Again, I'm not saying that to knock, I'm just saying, this isn't as one-sided as so many think. And when you let Osgood get frustrated on the bench, all the while getting cold and struggling to find a rhythm, and then put him in a game and have him play well only to be sent back to the bench for 4-5 games (it's happened at least a couple times lately)... Well, then it really should be no surprise that he'd struggle a bit against a team like Chicago. But Osgood struggles and comes back and tends to have a killer "next game." But he hasn't had a "next game" in far, far too long, despite deserving one on multiple occasions. That's not on Howard's great play, nor on Osgood's supposed "weak" play. That's Mike Babcock making some stupid decisions.

I think Howard's been playing a bit better than just "good" lately, but it doesn't change the fact that Osgood is this teams starting goaltender when it matters most and he is getting no opportunities lately to get his game going. I think the most troubling thing is that Osgood nailed the whole "Osgood just needs to be working hard in practice..." Osgood's right. He's on the verge of 400 wins and has been a part of 3 Stanley Cup teams, 2 as the starter. He's proven enough. Howard is the one who needs to be working hard in practice and ironing out the weak areas of his game so he doesn't wind up as just another flash in the pan. I'm not knocking him in saying that either. If he wants to have a career, he can afford to spend more time watching and practicing this season and next and learning from one of the most successful goalies in history firsthand. But what is he learning from Osgood when Osgood is the one stuck watching from the bench the majority of the time. Stupid. I don't like it one bit! Can't say it enough. Everyone's loving Howard now, but he's just being set up to be crucified when he slips into slump mode which will happen sooner or later this year. It's not fair to him that he should have to deal with that in his rookie year. Balance.

Howard has also had some bad games. Osgood generally speaking has played well this year, especially considering the fact that when he was getting the majority of the starts, the team in front of him was as bad a team as we've seen in awhile. October was ugly as hell and even in games we lost, Osgood played great. Too many people forget how strong he was in some of the early losses where the defense was utterly non-existent. I'll tell you, at first I didn't like this for Howard. I thought all these starts could lead to issues for him down the line, and I still believe that potential exists. But I figured Osgood would be fine. But at this point, it appears that is not the case. And you know, I don't blame him at all. He has not played bad this year. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON WHATSOEVER to his play last year during the regular season. Go look up his starts game by game and compare them. There's NO COMPARISON. Sure, Howard's been playing real well, but he is the rookie and Osgood is coming off his second Conn Smythe-caliber post-season and so far as this season has gone, Osgood has done absolutely nothing to warrant being relegated to backup goalie. Once again, I've gotta say that I think Babcock's a great coach, but his number one weakness year after year is goalie management. You'd think by now he'd have learned a thing or two more than it seems he has, but his foresight on goaltending matters is profoundly lacking. He's also quite inconsistent with the situation this year as Osgood has come back and had solid games and despite that, Howard has gotten the next 3, 4 or 5 starts. I can't sit here and disagree with Osgood. He's right. He hasn't played bad, but he's not getting any chance at all to get anything going. Last year Osgood had something to prove because he knew he had a terrible regular season. He had that fire. This year, when he's played fairly well for the most part, it's gotta be nothing short of tremendously frustrating to be getting even fewer chances than last year. I don't want a goalie with that kind of frustration leading the charge heading into the playoffs. And you've got to be totally insane to think it's a smart idea to go to Howard no matter how well he plays down the stretch. I don't like where this is headed for either goalie right now. Babcock needs to restore some balance. That's the bottom line. Osgood doesn't need to be frustrated and Howard doesn't need the opportunity to fall into a slump in his rookie season. Balance.

Schneider was far better than most gave him credit for when he was here but I wouldn't want him back at this point. He'd be a redundant edition to the defense at this point as we've got two guys who can shoot and score in Rafalski and Kronwall as well as two guys who are defensive liabilities in Meech and Lebda. Lidstrom's bound to start scoring again at some point as well. If we add anyone on defense, it ought to be a guy who's a bit more solid at DEFENSE. Our offense from the defense will be greatly aided by Kronwall's return. No use freaking out now and bringing in an old guy like Schneider. We've got enough redundancy across the whole lineup already.

I agree with what you're saying about the difference in quality. That's absolutely true and it's tough for anyone to logically suggest that Howard has been getting the toughest starts thus far. He's definitely benefited from playing weaker teams. However... I still don't think it really takes away from what he's done, but then again, I'm not suggesting he's been the greatest goalie in the world or a rookie of the year candidate. I'm satisfied with the fact that he's proven that he can play and win in the NHL. He's earned his shot to hang around for awhile. But in my mind, the opposite of that is him blowing it early and Holland shipping him out and signing a veteran backup to help down the stretch. He's proven thus far that we don't need to resort to that less than ideal option. Goalies come and go way too fast and frequently in the NHL for anyone to get too worked up about Howard. He's done well, but everyone, management included in my mind, would do well to temper their expectations and let him slip back into more of a backup/LEARNING mode. He's proven he can play. He physically is capable of using his size/body and technique to win games in the NHL. But the mental game for a goalie trumps all, and that takes a lot of time to develop and can easily be shaken. It doesn't help that it's easy for everyone, including management to get too excited about a young, hot goalie. Then they get played too much, too fast. And alas, that's why you see so many young goalies shine for a season and slip into mediocrity. Too much pressure, too fast. Even Osgood who has proven so much now in his career was a victim of this. Aside from the fact that Osgood is a rare cool head in a position typically dominated by borderline-maniacal characters, I think you've got to give a tremendous amount of credit to Mike Vernon for that. If he hadn't come in after Osgood's rookie season, particularly considering Osgood's utterly demoralizing game 7 blunder that cost the Wings the series against San Jose, I think Osgood likely would not have turned into the goalie he has become. A cool, smart and steady head can oftentimes overcome physical limitations. Osgood's not a big guy but he's smart and he's cool headed. It's been the key to his success. So naturally, you've got to think it's great that Osgood's hear for Howard. But realistically, Howard's got better physical tools than Osgood to work with. He's got a big body and if he takes the time to micro-manage his game and clean up some of the rough edges that are there, he'll have the physical tools to be an NHL starter and a successful one at that for a long time. And if he learns as much about the day to day grind and mental game as he can from Osgood in the next 2-3 years (I think Osgood will sign a 2-3 year extension next season) and stays with this Wings team, he'll likely have a good, maybe even great career. But again, he's done nothing yet besides proving that he deserves a shot at getting there as opposed to simply being booted out of town as soon as a veteran backup option surfaced. But as I've said, I'm rather worried that we're putting too much on him too quick, unnecessarily at that, and I do hope it slows down a bit. Osgood can handle it either way it goes no doubt, but Osgood's going to retire sooner or later, and I just think we'd do well to give his replacement time to grow into the role of a starter over the next 2-3 years so he might too be able to have what it takes to have a long CAREER in the NHL. I'm sick of the "flash in the pan" goalie mentality that has doomed so many other teams. In Osgood lies a blueprint for what it takes to be a successful CAREER NHL goalie. You don't sit on the verge of 400 career wins by accident. On the Red Wings, with a guy like Osgood to mentor him, Jimmy Howard has what it takes to live up and even exceed the Osgood blueprint. Again, I just hope they give him a FAIR and REASONABLE chance as opposed to whimsically gambling in the short term.

He was shaky at the start when the team in front of him wasn't giving either Howard or Osgood a chance to win. I don't think you can hold October over either Osgood or Howard's head. Osgood played far better than the rest of the team most of the time and Howard played absolutely fine for a rookie goalie in his first real season of NHL hockey. His "shakiness" was amplified tremendously by the teams horrendous play. However, I still stand by the idea that we need a more balanced rotation down the stretch. As well as Howard's played, he still has some significant elements of his game that need tightening up. More often than not thus far, he's gotten lucky but we've seen the weaknesses exploited (Dallas loss......) and sooner or later they're going to catch up to him more often if he doesn't straighten them out. I think at this point, he would be better served by a few less starts which amount to fewer opportunities for his confidence to be shaken and a bit more hunger to "earn" starts. Generally, I really like what we've seen so far, but I just worry that we might be setting him up for issues down the stretch the way things have been going. He doesn't need the opportunity to fall into a slump. That would not be ideal for a rookie goalie who's had a troubled development path and a crowd of doubters all around him. It's not rocket science, but this one's totally on Babcock either way it goes. To this day however, I believe that his number one weakness as a coach is his goalie management. I hope it works out for the best for Howard, as the kid's proven that he's got the tools and proven a lot so far. He deserves a chance to let his head catch up to his body, his numbers and the role of an NHL goalie. And he's earned our patience. More on Howard and the goaltending: http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62194

This cracked me up. I don't remember seeing it posted before. Good to hear that any way it goes in net this year, both of our guys seem to have a good relationship. http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/12/cu...goaltender.html "As for his relationship with Jimmy Howard? “I don’t want to say he’s like my son because I’m not old enough yet,†Osgood said. “But I help him along, tell him stuff when I see it.†Osgood joked that maybe Howard is a little too comfortable calling for advice. "Sometimes he's calling me five times a day," Osgood said. "I had to tell him to back off a little bit. I have kids at home I have to do stuff with, and a wife too. I can't show him all the attention." " Also: http://www.freep.com/article/20091214/SPOR...iendship-strong "When Howard struggled in October, critics buzzed with talk of how general manager Ken Holland should trade Howard for Martin Biron. It was another situation where Osgood's experience benefitted Howard, because Osgood has been questioned since he first got to Detroit in 1993. "It always seemed like it didn't matter what you did in the regular season until you played in the playoffs, which can be unfair," Osgood said. "From when I first saw Howie when he was 20 to now, it's like night and day. He's ready to be here. I tell him every day just keep getting better. Don't listen to anything, and just play.""

Wow. Some people are pretty pathetic. It was a clean hit. Get over it. Again, Doan's a classy hockey player and it goes even further when you hear he was checking up after with the Wings trainer. Some of you just need to grow up.

TMZ, Perez, all the gossip bulls*** for that matter ought to be outlawed. Free speech and freedom of the press shouldn't have to account for the scum that keeps the the gossip industry afloat. It's just pathetic, but still more pathetic that so many people in society obsess over it. And as much as the media loves to talk about health care and wars, I think the biggest issue that will define the 2010's is privacy. Facebook, iPhones, GPS, etc. etc. etc...the number of ways our privacy can be compromised these days is just unreal. Most people have no idea how expansive the systems are already. It's going to get interesting...

We may be depleted on paper, but I think this teams better on the ice than when they were healthy on paper. Not that I don't want others back, but the only guys I "absolutely must" have back once healthy are Kronwall and Franzen. I'm not convinced we won't have chemistry/balance issues again once everyone's healthy. Remember October? Anyways, bottom line, if our goalies can keep it to 2-3 goals a game, we stand a chance to win every night. This team is learning to score again. Our biggest scoring issues came after Kronwall went down and I think we have since adjusted for the change. It'll help to get guys like him and Franzen back as they create serious offense every night, but we can still score 3-4 goals a game even without Z. No doubt about it.

Again, I'm not arguing that it's been rough. No doubt about it. But right now with all the injuries, we're stuck. Furthermore, just as I am not thrilled with the pressure that's been put on Howard, I think Leino more than anyone heading into the start of this season was being set up to fail by fans and management. Holland got screwed in the off-season in many ways and instantly we start looking to guys like Leino to be a big help because he had the flashes last year. I just don't think that's good for a guys head going into a rookie season, and then you add all the injuries and other new guys and it mucks it up even more. I'm not defending his play thus far. He hasn't played well. No argument there. But the reality is, the guy has got skill, and maybe his heart's not in it now, but if he finds a spark at some point which is still quite possible, it could really get him going. Again, I get the frustration and it's not like I'm happy about it, but I still think the guy has a lot of upside if we can be patient with him. It's amazing what just once goal can do at the right time. Just look at Bertuzzi... And I'm not talking about the first 2-goal game. I'm talking about the weird goal he had a week or two before that. You could tell the guy was still down on himself and frustrated, but you could see a glimmer of hope emerging with some added urgency too. And what do you know, a little later he's on fire. Patience.

I won't argue with you on that, but I will certainly be patient with him. If he doesn't get it going next year, then he can be traded or walk at the end of the season. But this year, patience is key.

Doc's absolutely not a hater but to call him a slappy is absurd. He's by far one of the more level-minded posters here in general. I can always count on him to not rail on Osgood by default, but if Osgood plays a crap game, I can also count on him to readily call it out. This is in stark contrast to your posting style, as I can always count on you to be ripping on Osgood no matter what is going on.

Rookie.

Eh. s*** the bed might be an overstatement. I think it's fair to say we lost this game because Howard didn't give us a chance to win tonight. But again, I don't think it's Howard's fault so much. I just think they've putting too much on him too soon especially when he still has some issues (which were glaringly obvious at numerous points tonight) to work through. It's great that he's been getting the bounces and he's been really solid for us, but I think we would've seen Howard play better if he hadn't been carrying a starters load lately.

I don't like this loss only because we really should've won this game. We slipped on defense and Howard didn't have his best game. We weren't hurting as badly as one would think without Z though. I'm not aiming to put fault on Howard here but he didn't play well. I make a point of it though mostly because as I keep saying, I am not particularly a big fan of the way the way the rotation has been going. I think we would've won this game no matter what goalie was in net if Osgood was getting more starts in general. I just think this is a bit much for a rookie still, more mentally than anything. Howard can play, but I think they need to work him up to a starters load as opposed to just dropping it on him lately. Again, I truly think he would've looked better today if he had a few less starts, and for that, I don't blame him. Like I said, I'm not a fan of the rotation.

THANK YOU FOR CALLING THAT ONE!!! For crying out loud....nuts...

I made a thread you might want to read. http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62194