gcom007

Yes they do. Any way you shake it, he should have a better +/-. I'm not even blaming him. I'm not saying "Flip sucks and that's why his +/- sucks and why he has no points." I don't think he's going to score at a higher rate really, but it doesn't bother me. But again, any way you shake it he should have a better +/-. I know everyone's always got an exception or an excuse. I don't care. I get that s*** happens and I'm not saying he's been responsible for all those goals. But he's a good enough player that after this many games he should not have a +/- like that. The only explanation (and the crux of what I'm saying) is that he is not being used well. And again, as I've said other times, I don't think any of the lines look great right now. Flip gets more attention because supposedly his line has been the most consistent, and thus people feel it should not change. But bottom line, we're not winning, that line's not really looking great and they've got a s*** +/- across the board. So sorry, I'm not going to kiss their ass because I have an overzealous appreciation of an average player. The line needed a shake up. It's not a personal thing. What all you Flip lovers don't get is that most of us who critique him like him, just not as much as you. Get over it.

I'm not knocking Flip at all. Especially this time. I don't think we're using him right. I don't think that 3rd line was getting it done like it needs to. Even if they were our most consistent line, we're not winning games and our other lines are a mess too. If that line isn't getting it done, it doesn't matter if they're more consistent than the other ones, it's time to shake things up. P.S. Doesn't it bother you at all that you've had to convince yourself that I hate Flip to make yourself feel better about my critique of him?

Wow. Just wow. 0-0 after one. After the last few, I'll definitely take it.

He's looked better and better and I think it's going to look like a brilliant move for $1.5 million in a pinch by seasons end.

You missed the point in context of discussion. Even in terms of defense he's been getting weaker as he's pinched more. The team in general is not utilizing its resources well and I think a lot of that centers around Flip. People have put the wrong kinds of expectations on him and with him out for a bit, hopefully it'll get the team sobered up and honest about the rest of the guys and ideally then when Flip gets back, he gets used in a more efficient manner. Again, you say "what Flip brings every night." He's a better defensive center than offensive center. His offensive numbers are underwhelming. His +/- is ghastly considering what it should be with his defensive skills. And on top of that, many have suggested he's been our best player. What those numbers should then tell you is that something is off. Flip is not being plugged into a place where he can be most useful. That's the bottom line.

I agree totally about Leino. I think Dats is a great match to get him going, but I'd like to see what he could do with Z as well, or Dats/Z/Leino every now and again! And I get what you're saying about Williams. I think it's worth giving him some time and an opportunity to center. I'm thinking of it as Williams trying to rethink his game and take it up a level and become a more complete player. He's always had a lot of skill but his work ethic has been questionable through the years, he bounced around, ran his mouth, got traded a few times and so on and so forth. But he's older now and he's coming back here after not generating much interest from other teams. This whole season is an opportunity for him and now he's got the chance to take on even more responsibility. He's got the skills to be a much better player than he is and I have little doubt that he could evolve into becoming a stronger defensive player as well. As far as skill and development, Williams probably has the best shot out of anyone we've got right now to become a solid scoring line center. Abdelkater would be fine, but good enough to not be quickly replaced by Flip without a second thought once he returns? Highly unlikely. He's a rookie. But Williams has been around and he's shown that he has the skills. He's still only 29 as well, so it's not like he's too old to change; he's still got all his assets going strong but he's got a lot more experience too. He's at that point in his career where he knows in the back of his head more than anyone how much he stands to gain from a big opportunity. Could he have it in him to elevate his game? I really don't know, but I think it's worth giving him a shot. What's the worst that could happen? He flounders in the role so you see what Abdelkater can do. I think you've got to give a guy like Williams a big opportunity though at this stage in the game. If I'm Holland, before I make any trades, I'm giving Williams and others some real opportunities.

Yeah, ok, I see it. Still feel like elements of the wording is, well, not as clear as it could be, but it was written by lawyers. In any event, I don't think it really changes our circumstances right now if we were to make a trade so long as we keep with out plan of ditching some extra weight as other guys get healthy anyways...

I'm looking at this now again. I see what you're saying, but as it relates to trade and the final cap value at season end, it seems like things are still pro-rated. The wording of everything is kinda odd...it seems like you're allowed to be over the daily cap via trade so long as you're in compliance with the final cap hit number by seasons end. I think I'm more confused after reading things again...

How does that account for teams who make deadline deals? If you went by the cap number, more often than not they'd be over the limit. And again, the Ducks signed guys up the the cap and then Niedermeyer comes back as well as Selanne. Niedermayer wasn't counting against the cap because he was suspended and Selanne signed as a free agent late in the game and thus they only had part of the yearly contract active on the cap hit. Maybe I'm totally forgetting something, but I thought that's how it worked.

I'd start with this for awhile but I'd want to see plenty of mix-ups and guys battling for top line minutes. Leino/Datsyuk/Bertuzzi Cleary/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Eaves/Williams/Abdelkater Maltby/Draper/Helm' (May) So you Mix in May here and there depending on how things go. Mix up Bertuzzi and Holmstrom between Z and Dats for as well as Leino and Cleary. As said, I'd love for them to experiment a lot. I'd like to see a Dats, Z, Bertuzzi line be out there at times. I'd like to see Jason Williams show how offensively capable of a player he can be and really take charge of a line and raise hell in the offensive zone. They'd be weakest on defense but maybe not awful (how could they be any worse than what we've seen from almost all the lines thus far???) and hell, maybe they find a spark and get something going. I'd like to see Leino, Eaves and Abdelkater getting opportunities at top line minutes, but I want them to battle for it. I want them to start pushing for a shot on the big lines. All three are capable of scoring goals and this is the best opportunity they're going to have all year to get big minutes. I'm not worried to be honest. I think this season just got a little more exciting. I really believe that we're going to see a few guys really step up and surprise us.

No, because agian, it's all daily. Look at the chart. The cap number is what their average cap hit is based on their contract. It's an average of the total contract value divided by the years. That's broken down by days. Every day you're active your daily salary based on your cap hit as adding to your active hit. Typically, say for Flip, he never goes on LTIR and his hit will eventually be 3,000,000. But now they're not going to be adding that daily hit to the active hit for 6-8 weeks. The active hit is all that matters at the end of the day. That's why everyone was so pissed at the Ducks with Niedermeyer because your cap hit doesn't count while you're suspended so basically many felt they "cheated" because they would've been over the cap if he was active all year. And again, that's how teams pull off the deadline deals. Active hit is what matters.

http://www.letsgowings.com/salarychart/index.php Refer to the "days" column and how it relates to the "active hit" column.

Pretty sure when guys are on LTIR that their salaries don't count against the cap and it's all daily. That's how teams make trades for guys with huge salaries at the deadline because they may not have the room to swallow $7 million all year, but they have the room to pay the $2 million or so left for the year. But meanwhile, every day Flip and Franzen are on LTIR, they're not on the salary cap clock so we have that much more room to play with.

I liked a bit of what I saw with Datsyuk and Bertuzzi tonight too, though Bertuzzi-Dats-Holmstrom is a recipe for defensive, neutral zone, etc. disaster. Any line with Bert or Homer needs a complimentary winger who can move out there.

I'd really like to see Williams center a line.

Why?

Yeah, but at the same time, we just came up with an incredibly impressive comeback effort without Flip. I think it'd be safe to give it a bit of time and see how it goes. If we start winning, there's really no rush to make a move. We're 11 games in and it's still not even November. The longer we can hold out the better. Another positive is that at least Flip and Franzen out gives us a lot of cap relief to get creative if we need to be and perhaps make a bigger splash or a couple more moderate ones. I just really think we need more time to see what this team will do. Howard needs and deserves more time but we could need to make a move there. Lilja is still a wild-card that could be huge for the defense. And while I think we're learning that this team can still score goals, perhaps another solid goal scorer might make more sense say if Howard proves himself down the stretch and Lilja returns and the D shapes up. The longer we wait, the closer we get to the end, the more accurately we can target the needs that will make the biggest difference in the post-season when it matters.

I want to see Leino play with some other guys. The only reason I thought it was good the Flip went down for what I thought was maybe just a game or two at first was to get Leino out from that 3rd line. He needs to spend some time playing with other guys to see what he can get going. Flip and Leino are comfy-cozy together and it reads well in a paper, but neither were producing much offense. Flip's never had the hands, but Leino does. It'll be good to see him mixed in at other places. And P.S. He's a damn rookie. It'd be LUDICROUS to move him at this point.

No, plenty have said it, even Babcock a week or two ago.

I really hope he doesn't change this stance too quickly here. He needs to look at the game films and look at the score sheets right now and be realistic about how big of a loss Flip is for us. Like I said, sure, it isn't a good thing, but it's nothing compared to losing Franzen. He's got 6 points (only 2 goals) and he's a -6. I don't care who's said he's been our best player, those two numbers are demonstrative of a major problem somewhere in the process. If we go on a 7 game losing streak despite having a good effort from the team, you gotta see about a deal. But I don't think that'll happen. To be honest, I think we're more likely to see a 7 game winning streak. It has nothing to do with Flip hurting or helping us though and everything to do with the fact that this team needs to be mixed up a bit. You can't have your "best player" be a 6 point guy with a -6. That's just absurd. It's almost oxymoronic.

It could happen. It's going to be interesting to see what they end up doing. I'm thinking that they might wait until after the road trip to do anything though. I certainly don't think we're screwed. I'm not panicking at all. It's not a good thing to lose a guy like Flip, but it's not a back-breaker either. It's not like we're losing a lot of offense and lately, he hasn't exactly been outstanding defensively lately. What's his plus/minus after this game? -6? I'm hoping not having him in the lineup for awhile will show Babcock how best to use the other guys and when Flip's back, maybe we can get to using him better than we have. To be -6 with 2 goals and six points and apparently be our best player thus far this season proves that something is off.

Only positive thing I'll say is that I think Williams is more capable of being a scoring center on our 3rd scoring line. Maybe he'll get his shot here. More so perhaps, it ensures that Eaves will be in the lineup more as it's one more guy down who was always a lock to the lineup. If it has to happen, this is a good game for it to happen especially for a guy like Eaves. It's absolutely time for some guys to step up. I'd love to see Williams and Bertuzzi really get going and I will go out and say that I think Eaves has the potential to pull a "Franzen Lite." He's got the skills to be a force, but he needs to get comfortable and confident. All Franzen needed was an opportunity and Holmstrom went down. There are a lot of opportunities for guys to step up now. I'm still optimistic.

Yeah, I was in the middle of posting that I think it was good that it was Flip who went down when Babcock said that. Good for a game or two because I think the 3rd line and team needs to shake things up and experiment. 8 weeks really, really hurts. Hopefully though it'll push some of our guys who start slow to get up and push harder. There's no other option now...

True. He's been pushing more to put up the offense which is what everyone supposedly wants, but like many of us keep saying, he's not the most gifted offensive player. His strongest assets are being sacrificed based on the "hope" that he'll finally start scoring. It's not going to happen. He's a solid guy and important to this team, but offense is not his thing. I think it's good in some ways that he was the guy to go down solely because that 3rd line needed a shakeup if you ask me. Oh wait, s***. 8 weeks, broken wrist, Babcock just confirmed. Out for a game or two I think could be good for the team. 8 weeks is s***. That hurts. But like Babcock said, it's an opportunity for someone to really step up. Man, that's a huge ***** though. Who will center the third line now? Williams? Not a bad choice...

The fact that we're even talking about the shootout after this game is demonstrative of what's wrong with most fans analysis on LGW.com.