gcom007

I read that last night. One of the few times I've agreed 100% with Burky...

One year issue at its worst, and I'm still not worried about it at all.

While I agree to some extent about Stuart, the NTC fogs it up not to mention the fact that on the open market, Flip is going to net you a far better return. Furthermore, the lack of a NTC gives the Wings infinitely more flexibility in finding the best deal for them, namely, most/best draft picks. Stuart's NTC plus overall lower-status in general is a bit more binding. That's why I don't think it's reasonable to even consider him in Flip's category. While he is technically the highest paid replaceable player, the issues brought on by the NTC throw it out the window when you're running a business. I'm sure no one in the organization likes the idea of losing Flip and in many ways I don't even, but they all know they can fill the hole soon enough. They pump him up, but they're not stupid. They know they're not sitting on the next Datsyuk. His contract and the banter associated when he signed it is as laughable as the banter that associated the 5 year/$3 million hit for Kronwall, the future Nick Lidstrom. It's absurd. They're solid, solid players any team would love to have, but the hyping up is nothing more than hype. The players themselves would never have signed those deals if they thought there was even the slightest chance of them following in the footsteps of Dats and Lids. Kronwall and Flip are solid players that are worthy of a $3-4 million/year deal on any team. Meanwhile, Hossa's worth $7-8 million/year on any team and might sign with us for $4-5 million/year. This argument is silly. Get rational people...

He doesn't get many chances because he doesn't finish plays! Did you honestly think you were making a point there? Guys like Dats, Z and Hossa don't leave plays up to chance. They create their own luck by finishing plays. It's what superstars do. Flip doesn't have it in him. You're born with it or you're not. He doesn't have the fire. And I don't give a s*** who centers the line next year. It's a one year issue and we're talking about signing a premiere and proven superstar up for life. I'll take my chances on one year. We'll have more wiggle room to reign in a descent 2nd/3rd line center in 2010/11. I'm not sure we'll find someone necessarily as good as Flip, but we'll be able to line something up that will more than suffice after this year. We've got one year to get through on the pinch before we lose some cap weight. Hossa for life is worth the price of losing Flip.

Kenny also signed Datsyuk when people like you were saying the same stuff about him that you all are about Hossa. Superstars and superstars and they'll be superstars if you give them the chance. While I have no doubt that no one in the organization would be thrilled about losing Flip, I also have no doubt that everyone in the organization knows who has the greatest potential to contribute to this team long run. Hossa consistently scores more goals than Flip puts up points plus he's outstanding in our end. He also out-hustled the rest of the team all year. Things happen in the playoffs at times but I have no doubt that if he hangs around, he'll be HUGE for us next year. And lastly, while I'm just speculating, I'm still not convinced that Hossa was 100% through the playoffs. Through the first two rounds he took more than a few huge hits that I was shocked to see him get up from as well as he did, and even so, he wobbled off the ice. I don't remember specific games or instances even sans one, but I know there were at least 4-5 times where he was run big-time and blatantly shaken up. There was one in particular against the Ducks when he was held behind the net by Pronger before another Duck leveled him. Maybe he didn't have a pulled groin or a herniated disc, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a ways away from 100% in terms of generally being banged up. It happens. It messes with your mind and your body when you get run as many times as he did too. Datsyuk's been there before and he's come around. I have total faith in Hossa's ability to do the same. If he wasn't hungry before, he'll be hungry as hell now and more than ever, he'll want to prove himself to a city that he knows is doubting him. Superstars will find a way if given the chance. He's done more than enough in his career to prove that he deserves that chance.

Actually, I think you're overrating him. I think an optimistic ceiling is 50 points. He absolutely is not a goal scorer. He doesn't have any "finish" in him. He just doesn't have the same kind of fire that guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg have. That's fine and all, but the only reason people around here get all hot and heavy over him is because they think he's going to turn out to be another Dats or Z. It ain't going to happen. From day 1, those guys looked like future superstars. They had all the makings and just needed time. Flip absolutely does not have those makings. Again, the guy doesn't have the fire to finish a play with any sort of regularity.

40-50 goals at $4 (even 5...) million cap hit plus Selke-quality defensive play 40-50 points at $3 million cap hit plus very few goals, inconsistency and moderate defensive play This is a no-brainer. If fans were more rational, this poll would be heavily lopsided to the yes. I'm betting at least 90% of the yes's also thought Osgood was done and would've started Conklin...

Yes. He's replaceable. We'd have a hole in the roster next year for a stronger 2nd/3rd line center, but we could find someone in 2010/11 once some more cap space opens up to fill it up. One year of giving someone who's unproven an opportunity to sign Hossa up for life is well worth it. Flip will NEVER be Datsyuk. He's not even close. He's inconsistent. He doesn't have the fire. He doesn't finish plays. He'll peak at 50 points for a couple years if he's lucky. And besides, the simplest thing at play here whether we sign Hossa or not is that if we have to move someone, he's one of the only guys with a significant salary that doesn't have a NTC. That gives the Wings a lot more flexibility considering he also would likely draw more attention than any of our guys that do have the NTC. The Wings have a deep system. We can fill holes from within fairly well more often than not and again, we've really got to get through one, again, ONE really tight season before things level out a bit. So, again........if it takes losing Flip to sign Hossa for life, by all means, bring on the draft picks. We tend to know what to do with them...

Gordie's not going to trash him one way or another. I'm not saying he's holding back, just saying. I don't get as worked up about Crosby as many around here and I haven't gotten caught up in the handshake thing. While I think it's a bit lame, I get how it could happen. I don't like it, but I don't really hold it against him. The bigger issue with Crosby and Bettman for that matter as I was saying last night is that even if they're doing their primary jobs right, their PR is awful. They can't sell themselves to the public to save their lives. Crosby can't find a way to shake the "whiny spoiled brat" fumes that follow him around. Even when he's keeping it pretty chill, he still hasn't figured out how to be chill enough to keep people from thinking of him in the worst light. I'm not saying he chose to be the center of attention and I don't know how much he really enjoys it, but he absolutely shouldn't be the face of the league given the way he presents himself to the public. Compare him to Ovechkin. Even when Ovechkin's being obnoxious, at the very least it's entertaining. He's a funny guy. On a bad day he's far more personable and likable than Crosby on a good day. Again, right, wrong, good, bad, Ovechkin is entertaining. He also happens to be one of the best players in the game. He's easily among the NHL's top 5 guys and at that level, it's tough to narrow it down any further. He's just great. While it'd be easy to transition to Bettman hear and focus on the stupid decision to elevate Crosby over someone like Ovie, I'll again focus on a more fundamental critique. Bettman's as bad or worse than George Bush was at selling an idea to the public. It doesn't matter if you have great or horrible ideas if you can sell them to the public so it's not even worth debating policy. A guy with such horrible rapport with the media and fans should not be commissioner of the league.

Flips replaceable. I don't care if he reminds you of Pavel, it's still an absurd comparison. Pavel looked like a potential superstar right out of the gate. Flip absolutely does not. He's terrible at finishing plays. And again, it's not a total knock on the guy, but he's the highest paid player that's replaceable and that'll be easier to do in 2010/11. Keeping Hossa would mean far more to this team long-term than keeping Flip. If you have to sacrifice him and what he brings to his role for a year, it's worth it. We can refill it in 2010/11. And you said it best, 29 other teams would love to have him. That's why if we need to shed some space, he'll go. He'll bring the biggest return of any of our guys that can be traded. And Stuart has a NTC for next season. Draper/Maltby/Holmstrom - exactly, they won't be moved. That's why Flip probably will if we keep Hossa.

I think it's highly likely that they'll try to keep Flip as long as they can. That goes both ways as far as Hossa is concerned. I imagine we'll try to shave salary elsewhere before Flip, but it'll be tough if we keep Hossa. Either way it goes, I think Flip would be the guy to go if they want to do anything past minor during the season. No one else has the draw he does and he also frees up the most capspace for one player that actually has potential to be dealt. The rest of our higher paid guys obviously aren't going anywhere. Like I said above, if you need to clear a few million to address a need in the season, who else do you move? Whether we sign Hossa or not, we're going to be up against the wall. I'm not worried about Hossa. I think he'll be huge for us no matter who he's with next year if he signs on. And remember, you can't just measure his game in points, not that he struggled in that sense in the regular season. And I'm not trying to pick on Flip, but I think he's overrated around here. He's solid, but the Datsyuk comparisons are just absurd. Flip had his best year points wise this year with 40 in 80 games. This was his 3rd full season. In his second season, in 64 games, Datsyuk put up 51 points and he keeps getting better and better and now he's a Hart candidate. I think Flip has 1 or 2 "big" years of hitting 50 points in him, but that'll be it. Also, he's not even close to as strong as Dats on defense. He's not consistent. He doesn't play as physical as Dats. Takeaways...puck wizardry...TENACITY...I can go on and on. It ain't a knock on Flip to say that he's no Datsyuk, but it's a huge knock on Dats to suggest that Flip is even close to the player Dats is. Lastly, sure, it'd be nice to keep Flip or have a guy like him who's a fairly strong 2nd/3rd line center, but remember, we'll have more wiggle room most likely in the next couple years. If we're going to try to keep Hossa, we've got 1 real sticky year to get through before we can start building up the depth again. They've just got to think long term. Keeping a guy like Hossa means a lot more than losing a replaceable guy like Flip who's role can be refilled after a year or so.

Flip is no Datsyuk. Datsyuks always had an ability to finish a play. Flip has never had that. It's not something one really just develops out of nowhere. Dats is a world-class superstar. Flip isn't. He never will be in Datsyuks league. Note, I'm not saying he sucks at all. But if you're up against a cap wall and need to make a move that will have a significant impact on the cap, who else are you going to move?

I still am not convinced Flip has a future here. He always has been the one guy who would draw interest that's under contract that I could see going. When his deal was announced last year, I thought to myself, "Hmmm, well, we'll see if he finishes that deal up in Detroit..." He's the only player with a significant cap hit that's somewhat expendable if you want to focus your money on other areas. And again, he's one of the only players other teams would pony up draft picks for. Aside from that, Lilja, Lebda or Meech could go, but that's slim pickings. Moving all 3 would only net you an extra $2.6 million whereas one Flip nets you $3 million. We'll see how it goes. Aside from the cap issues, I'm thinking Kenny will do something to freshen things up around here that's not huge but not small either. Could be in the off-season, could be at the deadline. Time will tell.

Even if we could find a way to fit him in, it's not like they're just going to accept our fat for their premium cut. It's "NHL'09 for X-Box or something"-mentality. Reality don't work like that..... And besides that, no.

Yeah...like I was saying in another thread about Bettman, even if all his business moves are right, there's something wrong with the situation if he's still attracting so much hate. You've got to manage PR too. This Penguins/Crosby thing falls in the same thread. I feel I'm being objective in saying that the guy isn't liked much around the league be it by the players or the fans. It shouldn't be overlooked who the players, his peers, voted as the biggest whiner...none other than Sidney Crosby. And like you said, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding this and everyone in their mother seems to want to cry foul about the officiating this year, in particular game 3 (which I agree was not only slanted but the turning point in the series). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the vibe that a guy like Ovechkin is fairly well-liked. He's got his antics that draw criticisms, but generally, he seems to be appreciated by players and fans. He's a great player (better than Crosby if you ask me), great on the PR front (WAY better than Crosby), funny (Crosby funny?) and he's got enough edge and flare to make him interesting with the celebrations and all. I'd much rather have him tacked on to every commercial than Crosby. Before we played the Pens in the finals last year I was already sick of Crosby. Like Bettman, he doesn't know how to sell himself. He just comes across as a whiny little punk. He always has to me. I felt this way from day one. He's not near as bad as some make him out to be, but he's certainly not undeserving of the negative attention he garners either. Big difference between Sid and Ovie: Crosby's negative attention is annoying; Ovie's negative attention is at least entertaining.

Wasn't Abdelkader injured to close out the series? I could be wrong, but I thought I read/heard that a couple times.

Agreed 100%.

While I agree with this in many ways, I've got to say that at least in terms of the reffing, it doesn't help. I didn't like the Wings efforts in games 6 and 7. They brought those losses on themselves in many ways. However, I'm still not really over Game 3. I could care less about the Malkin carryover, I get that, but generally speaking, the way game 3 was called blew my mind. I get that refs miss calls and no one's perfect, yeah, sure. What happened in Game 3 went a good deal past that if you ask me and just about everybody else in the hockey world. I'm not saying anyone handed anyone anything, but I think you've got to be a little starry-eyed to suggest that there was no agenda at play on some level in the way that game was called. Gill and Orpik got away with murder how many times before Ericson took that late penalty that wouldn't have been called on the Pens or earlier in the game for that matter. Sure, we were banged up throughout and only really dominated one game, but I still feel like game 3 was a turning point in many ways that was brought on by profoundly poor officiating that goes beyond "mistake" and heads straight into "agenda" territory. Had the Wings pulled out game 3, the series is over in 4 or 5. Injuries wouldn't have been pushed on so hard. Pens wouldn't have had the momentum swing they did. It'd be a different series. I'm not expecting them to see everything or always get it right, but it's amazing what one game called on a slant can do to a series. I think we saw that quite clearly in these finals. It was the Wings to lose after game 5, but like I said, I don't think it needed to go that far. If game 3 were even just a bit more balanced, Wings win in 5 at worst. I'm trying to be reasonable about the loss, but that still stings a bit. I can't even begin to tell you how hungry it makes me for October...

I was rather surprised (or not...) by the differences between shaking Bettman last year with a quick run through and confident Bettman this year piling on the praise to Pittsburgh and Crosby. I keep wanting to think all this Bettman malarky is just that, malarky; drivel from the fans because we're fans. But so many little things continue to add up and on top of that there's more than a few bigger things. You'd think even if Bettman was doing a descent job, solely for PR purposes they'd find someone who can shine a better face to the media. Doesn't it bother any of the NHL officials and owners that Bettman is hated everywhere? Again, even if they're satisfied with the work he's done, as a public figure, one would think they'd want someone who didn't attract all the rampant character attacks. Again, even Jimmy D said Bettman has accomplished what he was brought in to do, but again, doesn't it bother anyone who actually has clout that the head honcho in charge of selling the game is hated by the masses? There's more to getting the job done than simply "getting the job done" when you're dealing with the masses. You've got to sell what you do, be it good or bad. Gary Bettman at the very least cannot seem to do that effectively. Put simply, he has little to no tact at all and even less charisma. Even if I was an owner that liked his policies and practices, I would imagine that I would be less than satisfied with his PR skills. When is the axe going to fall?

Osgood sure sucks too. Should've started Conklin. If we keep Hossa, he'll be huge for us next year. If you believe in guys with that kind of talent and give them a chance with good people around them, they'll find their game and live up to their superstar status. I don't doubt Hossa at all. The guy is going to be that much more hungry next year; he'll be that much more experienced. I know you'll ride the hype train, but I'll stick to what I know is right. It hasn't failed me yet.

Even if there is, why change now? Conks did everything we asked of him this year very well. If he'll play for the same contract, it'd be silly to search elsewhere. Loyalty means something to and this guy proved himself over and over and seemed like a classy, zero-drama guy heading into the playoffs with Osgood as starter despite his regular season. Again, why bother looking elsewhere if he'll play on the cheap? Bye bye Howard.

Unreal about Rafalski's injuries. Can't believe he was playing... I'd like to have Conklin back. He's a great backup guy to have around. I'm thinking Osgood will have a much stronger regular season next year. With these guys splitting games and Osgood on his, we'll win the Presidents Trophy for certain and the more he hangs around, the better I feel about him playing if needed in the playoffs. I do not trust Howard. I don't think I ever will. Conklin's a good fit for this team if he's cool with hanging in the backup-plus role which he seems to be. I'm fine with Hudler peacing out at this point and giving Leino a shot. I think he could do about as much offensively as Hudler has and hopefully do so more consistently. Hudler's just got too many hot and cold streaks for my taste. Good guy, good player, but it won't be awful to see him go either at this point. Holmstrom needs to decide if he can be effective for 100+ games a season. He seems to be struggling with injuries more and more every year which is no surprise give his role. If he just can't do it any more, he might as well hang them up to make cap space for someone else. I love the guy and all, but every season it just seems to be getting worse while his effectiveness goes down as well.

Hossa at $5 million cap hit is a bargain to be jumped on at the cost of guys like Sammy, Hudler, etc. I don't care what happened this year. Hossa's an elite player who will serve this team extremely well as time goes on. I have no doubt that if he's with us next year, he'll have a huge playoffs. No doubt whatsoever. I also was one of the few saying wait for Datsyuk when everyone wanted him gone. I also was one of the one's who said Osgood will be fine in the playoffs. I don't ride hype trains. I very much hope we find a way to keep Hossa. He's an outstanding player. This was a tough go-around for him no doubt, but again, I have NO DOUBTS AT ALL that he can be huge for us next spring.

If you don't want a guy like Hossa for Franzen money long-term (and I think it's a possibility) then you're out of your mind. Hossa's a well-rounded player. Helps up front and on D. Very few guys like that. He'll be a monster next year. I also remember when everyone was pissed that we resigned Datsyuk......

2009-10. Game on.