gcom007

I forget we even signed Weiss ALL THE TIME. And when I do remember, the next thought that comes into my head is "Uwe Krupp." I'm not saying it's the same situation, but the longer this injury drags on, the more it really starts to feel like it. How many times did we hear this year that he was "really close" only to have another setback? Hopefully he gets everything straightened out and comes back and makes the most of all of this rest he's had next year. It's certainly possible, if not probable. It's hard to believe we could get that unlucky on a signing twice. Knock on wood...

Mickey Redmond was a player and seemed to believe that giving up those early goals/leads was deflating. Does his opinion not count? I don't generally disagree with much of what you said. As I said, if this was one game, I'd let it slide. I raised no stink about Howard's gaff after the last game, and he played a worse game two overall than game three. Hell, I think I might've even defended him! It's one bad goal, it happens, you don't let in another easy one. No big deal. Again, s*** happens. But this is the second game in a row where at the very least what most would consider a weak goal was given up to give them an early lead. There's some debate about how easy of a goal it was to give up, but I don't think anyone can say that it wasn't a goal that he probably could've and should've stopped. If he hadn't had the game two early goal issue, I wouldn't be upset at all about this game. But two playoff games in a row with two lackluster goals against to surrender the lead to a team like Boston is a serious problem.

While I think most people missed the point of the thread I made about the way we develop players and how they play with and without stars in the lineup, I think it's interesting that Nyquist is continuing to struggle getting on the scoresheet. Obviously there are a lot more factors involved given that it's the playoffs and no one on this team has looked too hot against a very good Boston team, but Nyquist now has 2 assists for 2 points in the 9 games since Datsyuk returned. Yes, players get hot and players cool off, but Nyquist was a dominating force to be reckoned with for some time until Datsyuk came back in the lineup. It really makes me wonder all the more if it wouldn't be better to get these guys into the Wings lineup earlier on in their careers so they get used to playing with the full team. If you want to know more about why I think that, you can read my original thread at http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/76264-nyquist-since-datsyuks-return-unnatural-nhl-development/ , but try to focus on the latter half of the original post as opposed to getting too hung up on Nyquist. I don't think this is a Nyquist-specific phenomenon if it's a "phenomenon" at all. I just think our young kids might be better served getting an earlier and more traditional start in the NHL as opposed to one where they're coming up and playing because guys are out and starting their career riding off that kind of adrenaline. Then when the big guys come back and things are shaken up, perhaps they struggle with trying to figure out where they fit in, while also shaking up the way they were playing that lead to their success. Again, more in the original thread, but I'm still not convinced that we wouldn't be better off getting the younger talent into the NHL sooner.

He is taking the most heat because two games in a row he gave up easy goals to give Boston early leads. Again, Jimmy Howard did not give the Red Wings a chance to get things started against Boston, but he absolutely straight-up handed Boston that chance, two playoff games in a row. That's the bottom line and that's why it's a serious problem no matter his play the remainder of the game. I absolutely think we have other problems aside from Howard, but I also think we might see the team look a bit different if they weren't having to play from behind early on. We haven't really had a chance to get anything going two games in a row because early leads were given up to a team that is just too good to be giving early leads to. Like it or not, those early leads were started by bad plays by Howard. The situation was exacerbated by the rest of the team quickly in both games, and Howard obviously doesn't shoulder as much blame for those goals, but the wheels started coming off due to bad goals given up by Howard. Howard needs to give the team a better chance to get going than he's done these last two games. I didn't make a stink about it after the last game because it was one game and s*** happens. Most goalies give up one bad goal now and again. I've never held it against goalies when it occasionally happened. After all, I was an Osgood fan, and obviously he had his seriously atrocious goals against. But Osgood had a tendency of following up games in which he gave up lousy goals with outstanding, lights out games. Howard came back and gave up another easy goal and lead again tonight, in the playoffs. No one should be debating whether or not he played well the rest of the game because he did, but there should also be no debate that these early goals he's giving up are unacceptable and deflating, and again, that's a serious problem.

You have to put a lot of words in my mouth to feel the way you do. I'd prefer it if you didn't do that. Sure, that first goal came on a Bruins power play, but it wasn't a play that developed due to a unique power play situation. I don't think anyone sans the few going above and beyond to defend Howard are suggesting that it was anything but a weak, soft, absolutely unnecessary goal. Even Mickey Redmond who has a tendency of defending Howard couldn't defend him on that one, and the power play never came up in the conversation about the goal because it wasn't really a factor. As Mickey actually just said in the post-game, the Wings gave up two goals early on a platter, and that's the truth. I said earlier in the thread that the first goal was clearly on Howard and the second goal was clearly on the team performing a terrible line change. I didn't blame it on Howard and I did nothing to suggest that in my later thread. Babcock post-game: "We gave them two goals."

Big difference between expecting a shut out and expecting to not give up incredibly soft/stupid goals and subsequently leads early on in two playoff games in a row. Huge, huge, huge difference in fact. Those kind of goals set the tone and both days, Boston comes back and scores another within just a few minutes. Again, he's hardly the only problem, but when your goalie is giving up leads to a team like Boston early two games in a row in the playoffs, it's a very serious problem whether he plays better the rest of the game or not. He obviously wasn't exactly lights out the rest of game two either. Jimmy Howard did not give the Red Wings a chance to get things started against Boston, but he absolutely straight-up handed Boston that chance, two playoff games in a row. That's the bottom line and that's why it's a serious problem no matter his play the remainder of the game.

It didn't look like there were enough fans left to make much of a mess.

I've been fairly supportive of Howard relative to his struggles this year, but two games in a row he singlehandedly gave Boston early leads. It's clear that the goals aren't coming easy for us, so to give up such awful goals early on is just completely unacceptable. He's well into his career now and is getting paid top-10 goalie money; he can't do what he's done in these last two games. It doesn't matter how well he plays the rest of the game. When you're stuck playing from behind against a team like Boston with such a young team at that, you're asking for trouble. Now I'm not saying he singlehandedly lost the games for us. Obviously you need to score goals too. But again, Howard is singlehandedly the reason why we gave up two early leads, and that's just no way to start games against a team like Boston. Given his status, his contract, and the build and make of this particular team, he needs to be leading and steadying the ship early, not forcing a team full of rookies to play from behind. I want to like Howard and I have for some time, and I can agree that he played well today after giving up the two first period goals, but it's really, really hard to overlook the way he's started these last couple games given that it's the playoffs. I think it's safe to say that he's worn out his "grace" goals for this series. He needs to be competing all the way through and not be giving Boston any more easy goals, especially early on.

Booing as they should. That was a pathetic period. Two games in a row Howard hands them the first goal and the team follows up with stupid, stupid play. Pathetic. They absolutely have to be way better than that.

1st goal: terrible goaltending. 2nd goal: terrible line change Playoffs. We are handing them this game right now.

That was a lousy, lousy goal to give up power play or not. Clearly Howard's bad goal of the game. He absolutely can't have another.

I never said that I don't think he should improve that area of his game. I said it shouldn't be surprising because thus far, he's not been a good puck handler. A bonehead play like this was just waiting to happen given his ability or lack thereof. Frankly, it's why his little Mrazak comment from game 1 was a little alarming to me, because the playoffs is not the time to shake things up, especially in a part of your game that has been notoriously weak. But I'd love it if Howard worked as hard in he the summer on his weaknesses like Dats and the other greats do. That's why they get paid. Jimmy gets paid like them to. I was saying he should do this years ago if you were to go back and look at some old posts. He's got a solid skill set but he has clear areas that need improvement, and improving in those areas could really help him reach those highs more consistently and authoritatively.

Howard's never been very good at handling the puck, so a play like this shouldn't be entirely too surprising, like the guy or not. It's a weakness of his game, and all goalies have weaknesses. It was a terrible play and utterly atrocious timing for such a play, but if you liked the guy before and this is the only reason you're bent out of shape now, you either haven't been paying too close of attention or you'll get over it. I suspect the latter. As said, he's never been known to be too hot at handling the puck, but he does many other things well a lot of the time. He's not perfect as we've seen through this regular season, but he was great in game 1, had some great moments in this game, and in the end, we absolutely didn't lose this game because of that play. I wouldn't even call it momentum turning. What was momentum turning, if you can even call it that this early, is when we kept taking stupid penalties and getting rattled by Boston's physical game. That is what lost this game for us. If we can stay composed and stay out of the box and use our speed against Boston to draw penalties, we can beat them. If we lose our cool and give Boston too many power play opportunities, we're toast, and bad or great, Howard's play won't end up being the factor that changes the outcome of the series. Don't get me wrong, he needs to be on his A-Game no doubt to keep us in it, but it won't be enough to overcome Boston if the rest of the guys lose their cool and play into Boston's game.

Maybe we'll get a shot on this power play...

How about we forget about Chara and everyone else and target the ******* net??? There's an idea! How many shots did we have in that period? How about on the power play?!? Goals win the game. Let them goon it up. We don't have the team that can win that kind of war. We can win on the scoresheet though and we need to focus on that game.

Chara grabbed his stick, pulled it tight and went down.

The Wings need to regroup big time. They're playing into the Bruins all over the ice and Chara laughing at Smith was symbolic of the team laughing at the Wings after that period. They need to get it together and punish them by putting the ******* puck in the net.

They both were at fault, but when you get a "pass" in the form of a shot to the shin pads, that part is not on you. That was utterly terrible puck management. And terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

Unreal. Where's the discipline???

Watched replay of the Tatar penalty a couple times on DVR, Chara absolutely grabbed Tatar's stick, pulled it close and went down. Bulls*** play. Can't stand these dives. And what the hell was that Smith and Howard? Not how you play the puck.

I'm still shaking. Holy s***, what a game. Pavel Datsyuk doing what the greats do and rising up with a spectacular play to win it. Brilliant. Outstanding. Marvelous. Phenomenally great. Superlatives run amuck to describe my love, appreciation and respect for Pavel Datsyuk.

Obviously Nyquist, but I think Alfie should be getting a lot more credit for what he did this season. He was one of the only older players that was consistently in the lineup who produced decently as well. I don't know if we would've been able to pull through without him there. Z was great when he played, but that was half a season. Gustavson was a major help the first half of the season but was less effective as time went on and injuries piled up. Howard? Absolutely not. Kronwall deserves a look, but eh.

Is anyone else slightly concerned that Nyquist hasn't scored a goal since Datsyuk returned? It's only been 4 games, and obviously every situation is different, and who knows what really goes on in these guys' heads, but I always wonder when a young guy comes up and plays great while stars are out of the lineup because oftentimes once the stars come back, it seems that they lose track of whatever it was that helped them play great. I don't know if they relax or start defaulting to playing a different style or if they just lose some confidence when they're not being looked to as "the guy" anymore, but something seems to happen that negatively affects some of these young players' performances when the veteran stars come back. Hopefully this isn't a trend with Nyquist, but this is the longest he's gone without a goal since January, and that was before he really heated up. I missed more than half of the game today as I accidentally fell asleep while trying to get rid of a headache, but I noticed that even with the 5 minute overtime, Nyquist's ice time was on the low side tonight; 14:44 when he's been averaging 16-19 minutes more often than not. Has anyone noticed anything different about his play since Datsyuk returned? You'd think he'd get more room now with teams having to worry about Datsyuk again, but it's yet to translate to him putting the puck in the net. If this is a legitimate issue for Nyquist and others that have and will come through our system, I wonder if the situation could be improved if some of these kids were worked into the system earlier and got more of a chance to develop in normal circumstances while our veteran stars and leaders are part of the lineup. I don't think it's natural or necessarily good for them to get their first taste of serious NHL ice time only when the team suffers from long-term injuries, especially when it's the team's leaders that are out of the lineup. If they come up and have that adrenaline rush of not only playing but getting a lot of ice time and some time in the spotlight as "the guy," only to have that role slip away as soon as someone comes back into the lineup, it's bound to affect them mentally. Maybe the expectations get too inflated based on exceptional performance during a unique period of time. Then, once they're playing in a normal lineup again, they're busy trying to learn to play in a system that is different from when they had their initial moment to shine, thus likely not living up to expectations that are based on unique circumstances. On top of that, given how long we traditionally keep guys in GR, these kids are even more motivated to make a splash when they do get their moment, which again, might lead to a stream of brilliant play that they struggle to maintain once they start having to learn to deal with the typical pressures and grind of NHL hockey. The bottom line is that I don't think it's a fluke that guys like Nyquist score like they do, as I think it's obvious that some of these guys have a ton of potential. I am more concerned with whether it's really such a great idea to leave them to develop for so long in the minors as opposed to bringing them up and allowing them to adjust to the NHL and to the normal state of an NHL team in a more gradual manner. Then when they truly find their game and get something special going, it isn't something happening in an unusual circumstance before having time to adjust to other things NHLers need to adjust to. In any event, at least as far as Nyquist is concerned, hopefully this is much ado about nothing and he gets it going again quick.

Is Howard for sure starting both games? If Gus starts a game, I'd rest Kronwall at least that game then. But I definitely see your point on this one.

Rest Alfie and Kronwall, absolutely. That only stands to help those guys, albeit minimally. But rest Datsyuk only if he's hurting more than he expected to, otherwise he needs all the games he can get to elevate his conditioning and feel on the ice in game situations.