gcom007

You lost me at "Bleacher Report."

That's how it goes around here. Hate the starter, love the backup. Absurdity. But I'll say it was easier to defend Osgood than it's been to defend Howard, even in those rough years. 2009 Osgood had a brutal regular season after winning the Cup but then came around for the playoffs. I said over and over and over when people were losing their minds about Osgood, "He'll be fine in April, quote me on it." And then he had a phenomenal playoff run despite a very injured Red Wings team. Howard could really use some of that magic this year. He's got the skill, but for goalies, it's all about the mind once the playoffs come around. I'm still rooting for him, though I'm not going to start throwing Gus under the bus because of a bad game either. He's been great for us as Howard's struggled.

I was rolling my eyes at Malkin going down again, even if the first one ended up being somewhat legit. Then I saw the replay. Holy s***, that didn't look good at all. And only Crosy could slash his own player and walk away with a power play!

I apologize then. It's hard to tell sometimes around here as I'm sure you know.

Despite defending Howard, I will say this with a great deal of conviction: unless things shift dramatically over the next two weeks, Gus should absolutely get the Winter Classic start. He's more than earned it as this season's gone on and Howard hasn't. It'd be the right time to send that kind of a message to Howard. To be clear, the playoffs would absolutely be the wrong time. If Gus continues to have a great year through the end, he'll sign somewhere for more money and we should be happy for him. Howard's our starter for the long run. It'd be a terrible decision to bench him in the playoffs in favor of a guy that's likely leaving when we have many years ahead of us with Howard. If we start Gus in the playoffs, we're trading Howard in the offseason and signing Gus as the new starter. Does anyone think that's even remotely likely to happen? Gus: Winter Classic starter. Howard: Playoff starter.

Defense has needed work for awhile and Howard's in a slump. Howard's been outstanding with crap defense for long stretches of time in the past and generally he's been very good for us. Chances are he'll come around. Doesn't it ever get old bagging on the starting goalie?

Stupid to judge the situation right now. He's in a slump, but he could easily come out of it and dominate again. He was outstanding last year and is obviously capable. He still has something to prove in the playoffs to be certain, but he hasn't been bad thus far in the post-season and he's got the skill to silence a lot of people if he has a great run this spring. This would be a good year for it after a tough regular season. I'm rooting for him, and thankfully Monster is having a strong season thus far to help out.

I'm not trying to bag on Howard as I honestly don't really care about this slump; I think he'll be fine down the stretch, and that's what matters to me. But for the love, what is his 3rd period GAA this season??? It's unbelievable how hard he's been hit in the 3rd.

While technically, yes, he got the loss, I would hardly say that Gus lost that game. He was about the only one on the team that seemed to be playing the game. Howard will get a start soon, but this absolutely won't derail any plans to not give Gus more starts. If Howard plays lights out hockey, that could change things, but I think we'll see a lot of back and forth for awhile until that actually happens.

For the most part I agree. I think it's silly to write Howard off at this point. He's proven that he's a capable guy, and I'd say the odds are in his favor of bouncing back. The only thing I'm iffy on is the comparison to Conklin, though it's tentative. I'm not incredibly familiar with Gustavsson's overall career, but wasn't he in the running for a starting position in Toronto for awhile, though he was often troubled by heart issues or something? I thought I was reading early on when we signed him something about him potentially being more than just a backup, and that he was a guy with the kind of skills that could earn him a starting role. It's obvious who the Wings want the starter to be; just look at the contract he signed last year. But just going off my vague memories, it seems that it might not be as straightforward of a situation as looking at him as a career backup like Conklin or Legace were. But all that said, I don't think it'd be smart to go with him in the playoffs even if he's the better goalie down the stretch. We signed Howard for the stretch, and if Gustavsson keeps this play up, we won't be signing him again. It just seems a bit stupid to bench your starting goalie when you know he's going to be in the picture for the long run given that he's also proven that he is capable of being much better. Osgood had a lousy 2009 regular season and was outstanding in the playoffs, so you just never know. You've got to keep riding Gustavsson for now because he's winning, and if he keeps winning, he should start the Winter Classic. That's when you can reward the current backup and send a message to the starter, not in the playoffs.

This is absurd.

I think he's playing as well as can be reasonably expected of him at this point, reasonable being the key word there. Of our many older guys that qualify as questionable signings, I think he still may be the one that might prove most important to the team's potential this year. It's a wildcard/gut sort of feeling, but come playoff time, if he's healthy, I think he's going to know that this is his last shot at winning a Cup, and I wouldn't mind having a guy as capable as him on my team with that sort of motivation in the playoffs. It could easily and likely will not work out as idealistically as I see it, but if I had to choose a guy to keep right now out of Cleary, Sammuelsson, Tootoo and Bert, I'd keep Bert.

Another game, and once again, I just don't get this team. We're basically a quarter of the way in now, and I just don't get how this happened. It's not like they're the worst team out there, obviously. 4th in the conference is what it is. But it's got to be among the ugliest 4th place efforts I've seen, and if things don't improve, I can't imagine us holding on to the position for long. Especially considering that it's beyond clear at this point that roster management has become a bit of a disaster area to say the least. It's hysterical to me how so many of the classic Holland defenders have tended to rail on other teams for signing certain guys at certain prices, particularly Chicago, and how screwed they'd be by the cap. Yet Chicago just won a Stanley Cup and we're the one's screwed by the cap because we signed too many old and/or mediocre guys. As I've said ad nauseum in the past, this isn't a team that's going to become terrible overnight so long as Dats and Z are here, but every year they slow down and we fail to bring in serious talent or give our young guys a chance to develop in the big league, it's going to get uglier and uglier. And again, we don't have anyone close to the talent level of Dats or Z coming up in the system, let alone two of them, and we can't seem to bring in guys at that level lately unless they're around 40 years old. Something's got to give with Holland or they need to find someone who's not afraid to make the tough decisions and cut ties with guys, because this slow churn towards mediocrity is only going to intensify as time passes. Don't kid yourselves; this is a descent roster still with Dats and Z leading it and Alfie's hungry and despite how concerned some are, Howard's going to be fine down the stretch. He's capable. We'll make the playoffs this year, again, no doubt about it, and who knows what can happen then if we get on a role and avoid injuries. But make no mistake, this play we're seeing does not bode well for the long term future of this team. There are a lot of fundamental issues with the way this team is being managed right now and the cracks in the system are becoming ever more clear on the ice. Hell, I'll say it as simply as I can after watching the last couple seasons and this season thus far: when Datsyuk really slows down and/or decides hangs them up, this team is truly screwed. Even if Z stays, he'll be less effective as time goes on and even now, he wouldn't be able to carry this team to success without Datsyuk. We can't sign stars and we aren't developing stars, and when so many other stars have been removed without being truly replaced, there's just no way this team will be able to be even remotely as successful as they've been, clumsily or not, when you take a guy like Datsyuk away and leave the load on Zetterberg's fragile back. I like Dan Cleary. I like Todd Bertuzzi. I like Danielle Alfredsson. (Though I don't like Samuelsson). But like (or dislike...) these guys or not, you're doing the future of this team absolutely no favors building the current team around these guys when you've lost so many core guys over the last few years. On top of that, the current core's ability to really be the core will only last a few more years, if we're lucky, and given Dats and Z's ages, it wouldn't be hard to get unlucky thanks to a freak injury or an ailing back. So look at these last 20 games, and get used to it, because if things continue as they have the last 4-5 years with management, in 4-5 more years, we'll be lucky if those Wings play as well then as these Wings are playing poorly now. Howard will bounce back. It might get uglier before it gets better, but he's proven that he can play at a high level, and he'll get back there in due time. I have no doubt about it. I get the frustration now, and I'm not trying to make excuses, but I really feel that long term, he's the least of this team's problems.

Well, that is just s***ty. I was annoyed with Ken Holland before, and have been for some time, but this is the first time that I've started to just not like him. It's not just that it's s***ty to not tell the player, but the whole reason this is happening is because he's made so many blatantly awful signings. Then when a hard working guy with a great attitude is affected by it, you create a situation that allows him to find out he's getting waived by the press. That's just another s***ty thing to do after a slew of bad decisions.

If true, Holland lost a lot more points in my book than he already has over the last few years. It's one thing to struggle in free agency and replacing players, it's another to just be this lacking in class. And this is awful. I love Eaves. Injuries haven't helped him the last couple seasons, but the guy has a lot of fight in him and a fair amount of skill. It'll be a shame to see him go. But it's okay, we still have Samuellson, who we can't reasonably trade or waive. Good job, Holland. Keep up the good work, best GM in the league.

Ha! I will never understand this cities continued love of Manny Legace. The guy was never as good as some wanted him to be at his best and he utterly fell apart both opportunities he had to make something happen in the playoffs. He had a good thing going as a backup, but like many guys, he wanted more, couldn't live with a backup role, and he learned the hard way that it takes a lot more than he ever had to be a playoff goalie. All I can do is role my eyes at the whole ridiculous situation.

I don't doubt Holland's raw ability to be a great GM in general, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he's become too sentimental with this team. Either that or someone higher up has and is twisting his arm, though I doubt the latter. Either way, I think it's been far too long since he's lived up to his reputation. He's certainly not even close to the worst, but I think it's hard to say that he's absolutely the best right now. I think if you were to take Datsyuk and Zetterberg off this team and ask Holland to fill out the roster, the whole "we make the playoffs every year" argument would fly out the window and not return for a long time. Holland's running on fumes. Just like some players need scenery changes to flourish again, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the situation were the same with Holland. I would not be shocked at all to see him build a great team if he were to leave the Wings for another club, but I don't know if we can expect him to do the same here anymore. Once Dats and Z are done, this ongoing success that he's been able to ride is going to take a devastating hit. We have good guys coming up, but we don't have one let alone two players of the caliber of Dats and Z in the system, and Holland seems incapable of landing the big names anymore unless they're over 40.

I thought all of this bulls*** would end now that he's gone. Why are people still arguing about this??? Who cares. Wish him the best. Move on.

I think the key is balance. Some players you can rush, some players need or are at least are served better than others with more time to develop in the minors. I think it's more than fair to say that the Wings might be pushing it to the extreme end at this point, and oftentimes that does come back to haunt you, or at least cause you to field a weaker team. I think last year was a good example of that. We spent too much on mid-level guys that had no impact for one reason or another and our younger guys unexpectedly carried us further than anyone would've predicted. I would've like to have seen Holland trying to go this route for awhile but with intention, and instead of signing two mid-level guys to overpriced deals, sign one impact guy that will make those around him better and set an example for the kids.

If Flip was as predictable and consistent as a goal scorer as you are as a poster on this message board, you'd have a real good point.

Again, I don't know if this is a good deal yet for the team, as we're yet to see who it affects. If it means moving promising young guys or alienating them (further in some cases...), then I think it's a very bad move. But purely from the standpoint of the kind of player we got for the money, it's a very good, solid deal. I wouldn't say great. Hossa for life at $5 million is great. Cleary for a year at $1.75 is just a good deal. He took a lot less money to stay, and given his age, may've risked a lot of money given that he could've signed a 3-year deal if he made the Flyers. That's all impressive in this day and age, and I think it's a testament to who Dan Cleary is and what he means to this team. And that said, I think we might be undervaluing him in that regard, as now you have a mid-level vet in the locker room who turned down the chance at a lot more money to be a part of this team, because this team is special. I've said for awhile that we need more of that kind of attitude on the Wings again and less of the paying older floaters like Samuellson $3 million a year or career underachievers like Flip anything close to the $5 million or whatever it is he wanted. Given that there's no going back now, I can only hope this attitude rubs off on more guys in the dressing room. Hopefully our younger guys that will undoubtedly see less ice time because of this will be mature enough to look at the situation with some perspective and consider why Cleary did what he did. And again, to be clear, if he signed for a penny more than $2 million, I'd be livid about this. And if we end up losing one of our better prospects over this, I'll likely get livid then. But for now, I'm focusing on the upside of it, and hoping that things work out for the best. If they can smooth out the roster and cap issues without hurting the future of this roster, it'll continue to be a very good signing for the Wings. Hopefully he's motivated to prove that this wasn't a mistake either and earn an extension and silence the doubters. Time will tell. One thing for sure though is that it's going to make for a hell of an interesting pre-season...

Good price, I'm fine with that. But whether this is a good deal or not boils down to who else it affects.

This is bizarre. If they do end up losing Tatar over this, my mind is going to be blown, but I don't even know if I'll have the emotional energy to get angry. s*** like this is just not surprising anymore, and that's sad. I've defended and criticized Cleary in the past and in this thread, and while I think he still has value at the right price, I think it'd be nuts to end up losing someone like Tatar so you can get Cleary in his last few years when he's already been on a serious decline. He had a great playoffs, but he's had terrible playoffs in the past too. Again, somewhere in the $1-2 million range is what Cleary should get if he signs with the Wings, and it should only be if it means not losing or further alienating some of your top prospects. In any event, again, this is just a bizarre situation at this point.

I wonder how quickly people will flood this thread with "Hawks are screwed" comments like they did the summer after they won their last Cup. I don't know, but I'd say the model's working pretty well so far. They might have a rougher year or two (relative to a Cup win), but they seem to be doing a good job of getting things aligned for a run when the opportunity strikes. I'm honestly impressed with what their management has been doing.

But he does have a Cup, and good team or not, that's no small feat. Howard does not have that at this point, and it's not something to overlook. In his best regular season, he floundered in the playoffs. He's been fine since, but again, no Cup is no Cup. Crawford got the job done. That said, I think they're both overpaid...