gcom007

This is surprising. I didn't expect Wings to get him, but I didn't expect Pens too either. Wonder if the so-called list was smaller than suggested, or shrunk over the last few days as the Pens added more pieces.

I don't buy the "making the team worse" argument, nor the cap argument. First of all, especially last year, when all was said and done, we still had $4.5 million in cap space. But even in years before last, guys that likely would've been moved to make a trade happen would have balanced out most of the cap issues. And while I don't think you could say that making a trade that ships out talent for talent would make the team better immediately, I don't think it'd make them so much worse either. It probably would have been even then, with a stronger defense but somewhat weaker offense. But it'd make the blow of losing your top three defensemen over the course of one year much easier to swallow. Again, I'm not talking about just replacing Lidstrom, but also Rafalski and Stuart. Holland didn't even find a way to bring in a Stuart-level guy. I don't wholly disagree with some of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to suggest that perfection is the only option, but I absolutely am saying that if Holland was a truly great cap-era GM, I don't think he would've had the number and the magnitude of gaffs that he's had since really running up against the cap crunch. And don't take it from me, take it from him! He blatantly admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened in the off-season in the summer of 2009. It's been much of the same drill each off-season since then, only getting worse in some ways as the seasons go by. And to be clear, I'm fine with having a year or two or even more of struggle to get things right. If we have to field a weaker team in order to sign better guys for awhile as we sort out this transition and evolve, so be it. What bothers me most about Holland's approach is that he's seemed content to change as little as possible because the team with the core of Dats, Z and Lidstrom was generally going to be good enough to at least make the playoffs. But now Lidstrom's gone, and while the core is still strong, it hardly makes the team infallible. If heaven forbid we do lose Datsyuk in 15 months, and three months later we start the season having not addressed yet another hole in any meaningful way, will it still be excusable? Pittsburgh landed Iginla tonight. Doesn't guarantee them anything, but we weren't even on Iginla's list according to most. No matter what you think of the deal or the other teams or how it might play out, that we weren't even a real part of the conversation is very telling of the status of our team. And again, I'd be fine with that status if it actually felt like we were building to something. But it doesn't, at all. We're just getting old and tired. As opposed to paying dues, we're just eeking by.

Exactly. Since everything is a black and white issue. If he's not great, he's obviously the worst. There's no room for anything in-between, obviously.

Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season? Or when we had one Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for around a million (who won us our last Cup) and another Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for $2 million and bonuses? Or when Franzen was making less than a million and actually producing? Or when Flip was doing as much as he does now for less than a million? Or when we still had Lidstrom, money be damned? We didn't have to start putting together a real cap team until 2009-2010. We were so stocked before the cap because of Mr. I's wallet that we didn't have to rush any talent, so by the time we start using some of our prospects, we had solid NHLers who were contributing far more than one would expect from typical guys making the kind of money they were. Once Holland had to start making cap decisions and signing our younger guys to real NHL deals, he has struggled in my opinion. And again, I'm not saying he utterly and completely failed, but I don't think he was great and I absolutely don't think he put the best team on the ice that he could. Whether we make the playoffs or not, if you can look at the situation and say, "you could do better," than something isn't right. He's had a pattern of favoring guys that we develop, whether it made the most hockey sense or not, and in multiple cases, it didn't, and it really bit us in the ass. I still think the worst off-season was the summer of 2009 when he failed to sign any of our FAs, but made sure to sign Franzen to a lifetime deal before the regular season ended. He could've signed Hossa for around a million more per year, but instead prioritized the signing of Franzen, a one-dimensional player with only a couple strong seasons to his name, and Hudler, another small, one-dimensional player who ended up leaving for Russia anyways. When you have a chance to lock up a legitimate superstar who will outwork nearly everyone on the ice every night at both ends for a $5 million cap hit or less, you don't focus on Franzen and Hudler, or hell, Samuellson for that matter, who also left. But it ended in an interesting manner, because he picked up some solid guys on the cheap because he had no other choice when he failed to sign anyone. And oddly, I'd say this is his strength. He's pretty good at finding descent NHL level guys like Patrick Eaves for very little money, bringing them in and getting a good amount of solid hockey out of them. What's nuts is that if he had his priorities straight, he could've kept Hossa and still would've ended up signing these types of guys to fill out the team with the cap space he had left. But he keeps going back to the same old well for a lot of the same old guys. For the love, we signed Samuellson again this last off-season! And sure, we're making the playoffs, but like I said, there's that nagging "you could do better" factor. After all, when you have a team with Dats and Z and a descent goaltender, let alone when we had Nick Lidstrom anchoring our defense, I would hope you'd be in the playoffs every year! But I didn't know we were supposed to be satisfied with that, especially when it's practically a given when you have Dats and Z and Lidstrom and descent goaltending? Sure, it's nice, and I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment, but we should be there with the guys we have. That we don't go farther with the guys we have when Holland has had the power to put a better team on the ice and hasn't is the problem. Most every good thing that's happened to this team in the cap era is a gift from the pre-cap era. Since the cap has started to catch up with us, things haven't looked so hot. And hell, when you've got whispers around time from guys who know and blatant remarks made to the press from the coach about dissatisfaction with what Holland's been doing, especially when we've had cap space and when we have enough prospects to move guys without leveraging the future, you've got to wonder if this is more than Armchair-GM critique at some point. Bottom line, we've had a lot of guys leave the last few years, and little has been done to address it. We've had plenty of questionable signings. We've let guys slip away. We've failed to make moves to improve the team when opportunities are out there. We utterly and completely failed to prepare for the loss of Lidstrom before we were placed into a position of desperation. And for the love, I don't care who was or wasn't available. Bottom line is, when you know you're going to lose a guy like Lidstrom, you move mountains to make a deal to land someone who can help bridge the gap and instill confidence. You really want to try and tell me Holland couldn't have brought in a solid guy capable of serving in that #1 role before Lidstrom left? I don't care if you have to give up prospects, picks, solid roster people, or overpay. You're in an infinitely better position before you lose Lidstrom than after, when every team or player is going to be demanding all the more from you, knowing you're desperate, all while you no longer have the benefit of being able to say, "you're going to be on a pairing with one of the greatest hockey players in history until he retires." You really want to try to tell me Holland couldn't have shaken enough trees to find even another Kronwall-level guy to at least help ease the pain somewhat before Lidstrom left? Please. We have a core in place still that allows this team to compete every night, but the core deserves better. This should be a team that's not just able to make the playoffs, but have a legitimate chance of going the distance. I expect this team to get by in the regular season these days, but I don't expect anything out of the playoffs, when nearly every other team in the playoffs the last couple years has been able to show they're capable of making a racket? Why do I think that is? We don't have another level to go to anymore. We've got a lot of tired guys who don't have nearly as much to play for anymore after winning Cups and feeling the grind a few too many times. I'd rather have young, unproven guys than some of the guys we have hanging around still, because at least they still have something to prove. That is what motivates guys to find another level for the playoffs. We were lucky enough to be able to let our guys get ripe in GR so we could pay them less when they could contribute at a high level before, but I really don't know how much longer that's going to work in the cap era. It's one thing to let vets carry you through the season, but these mid-level vets with little left to play for don't get the job done in the playoffs. And lastly, again, some of the guys Holland's ended up bringing in the last 3-4 years haven't been bad guys at all. I'm fine with Eaves, Miller, Tootoo, and a few others here and there. But he brought those guys in when he had no other choices. He could've done the same thing and made better high-end choices before he was up against the wall only to come up dry. That's the real problem with Holland. I think he could be a great cap-era GM if he gets back to making splashes like Rafalski or Hossa and then finding cheap guys who can contribute and have something to prove. I'm glad he hasn't thrown a ton of money at a goalie as I think it's one of the dumbest investments some teams make. But all in all, the "you could do better" thing hangs over the last four years like a cloudy sky on the verge of rain.

I tend to agree that those who get upset at Holland for failing to make things happen since last summer are off-base, as he did do all he could when in those situations, as I'm sure he's doing now. But it doesn't tell the whole story. What most Holland-bashers screw up on is thinking Holland dropped the ball say last summer with Parise and Suter or if DeKeyser doesn't sign here, then he obviously dropped the ball because it was an easy set up. But it's ultimately irrelevant what he does now with these guys in many ways when it's the team that's been put together over the last 4-5 years that's going to speak more to these players than what Holland says now. If Holland dropped the ball, it's been in not doing more to address player losses in years past, or failing to prepare for the loss of Lidstrom before he was up against a wall and desperate. After all, does anyone really think this would be a question for DeKeyser if the team looked more competitive on a consistent basis? If Holland had done a better job since our last Cup win at helping this team evolve, he likely wouldn't have to do much selling at all to someone like DeKeyser. But in any event, what happened happened, and while I haven't been a fan of many of the decisions for some time now, I can at least say that Holland is trying to do what he can since last summer to address issues. There's nothing more he can really do now, and presently, given the situation, you can't say he's not trying and doing the best he can. But he is stuck playing catchup you could say, and for that it is in many ways his own fault. A team with Hossa instead of Franzen and a legitimate number one defensemen replacement installed before Lidstrom retired instead of some of our tradable assets over the last few years is going to be a more attractive team to anyone he's trying to sign today. He got sentimental when things were still good and we weren't feeling the full heat of the cap, and the team that emerged out of that was not the team that he could use as leverage to get guys to really want to sign here, let alone for less than market value anymore. You could say that it's just the effects of parity brought on by the cap, and that's absolutely right on many levels. But if Holland was as good of a GM in the cap era as some thought he was prior to the cap, he would've done a better job of maintaining this team's prestige when he had the opportunity 3-4 years ago to do so. That's when he truly dropped the ball; back when things were good and people weren't paying enough attention. And yes, I know this team isn't terrible, and it's impressive that we're still in the playoff hunt with the team we have this year. That's all fine and dandy, though make no mistake, it really does help that we still have Dats and Z hanging around. But that's also the tragedy, as we still have Pavs and Z, which almost by default make this team competitive every night. And if a few more pieces were in place that could've been in place, this team wouldn't consistently still be a team that could make the playoffs, but a team that could legitimately challenge for the Cup every year. I know you don't win every year, but while you have the benefit of having Dats and Z on your team, it'd be nice to think a little more than, "we have a good chance of making the playoffs," and Hossa, a Lidstrom successor at least in title of legitimate number one defenseman, less old scraps and more youth would've been a big step in that direction. And if we had those things, we might've had a better opportunity of landing solid veteran help willing to play for less to win a Cup. Or a better opportunity of signing a much sought-after free-agent defenseman with potential to contribute right away. But we don't have that same leverage anymore. That didn't happen last summer, and it didn't happen while Holland was chatting with DeKeyser. That happened because over the last four years, when it was clear to anyone willing to admit it that some of our guys wouldn't play forever, and some of our newer guys weren't so proven, when the team needed to be truly evolving, nothing was done.

I'm surprised more people aren't on board with the idea of trying to land Iginla. I'm not going to be heartbroken if he doesn't arrive as I highly doubt it will happen, but it's just silly to believe he wouldn't still be an impact player even at his age for 2-3 more years. The Wings could use a real power-forward as well. Maybe Franzen could learn a thing or two from him, or at least become embarrassed enough to start trying a little harder again to live up to his now-irrelevant nickname. But again, the likelihood of him landing here is very small. I don't think it would have to do with us being strong suitors so much as willing suitors, if the other teams undoubtedly ahead of us aren't willing to pay the price. Still, unlikely at best.

I don't disagree with the logic, but I'm hesitant to believe that we have the assets to really attract a lot of attention. Sure, we've got Flip, but what's he really worth after another uninspiring season thus far, more injuries, and the looming UFA status? He's likely our best reasonable trade asset. Franzen's value is crippled by his contract, and considering his biggest strength is scoring goals and he's not doing much of that lately, what's he worth? Cleary? Sammy? White? Quincey? I mean, what do you really get for those guys on the best day at this point? I like the idea of it in theory, I just don't think we really have the pieces to make much of a splash, and for as little faith as I have in some of our guys, at this point, I have even less faith in Holland's ability to replace anyone. We've got young talent ready, but there's no guarantees that guys won't get up and sputter under the pressure of the full-time NHL gig. And anyone we draft won't be contributing to the Detroit Red Wings in the next year or two...or three or four...or five. I have tried in the past to not join the anti-Ken Holland bandwagon, but the more I really think about it, the more I really have a hard time defending the guy's performance as a GM in the cap era. Once the league took away the ability to use Mike Illitch's endless bank account to lure top-tier free agents, Holland has struggled to bring talent in, he's made some bonehead decisions (Franzen over Hossa (?!?!?!?!?!?!?)), caught off guard multiple times in the off-season without a plan for players leaving, and worst of all in my mind, had no plan in place for Lidstrom's retirement. I'll give him credit for being the first to exploit the loophole in the cap era that allowed us to sign Franzen at Z at low cap hits, but even those aren't looking quite as bright and shiny as they were initially, especially Franzen's deal. So basically, I'm not expecting much to happen at the deadline, even if we were to find ourselves out of the race. Furthermore, I'm not hopeful at all that we'll have a stellar offseason either. I don't Holland is as terrible as some think he is, but I don't think there's a whole lot you can say about him being exceptionally great in the cap era, especially since Bowman left the organization. It might not be that he's a bad cap-era GM though so much as maybe GMs just need to be switched out after 5-10 years, good run or not. After awhile, loyalty can start to become a liability in professional sports if not balanced with a healthy dose of pragmatism; while noble, it just doesn't always help get the job done. At some point, you've got to change your ways, or the team needs to find a new GM.

Lidstrom and Yzerman aren't even remotely equivalent players to bring up in this conversation; they each spent their whole career with the same team, weren't being pinched out by the cap, and they each retired earlier than Selanne likely will. Yzerman could barely skate without extreme pain and Lidstrom "lost the hunger" or something before this could become an issue. Obviously, the Wings can still afford to pay Lidstrom whatever he wants (are you reading this, Nick???). How many teams has Selanne played for? Oh yeah, four. We're not even talking Mike Modano or Ray Borque level decisions here, having literally spent their entire career with one team only to switch teams late in their career for one reason or another. But when there's hunger there for a Cup or to keep playing and your longtime team can't afford you or make a place for you or put a team together that can make a run, you find a way to rationalize things, painful as it may be in some ways. And again, those guys hadn't already changed teams four times before, like Teemu has. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's incredibly likely that he'll play for someone else, nor am I trying to suggest that he doesn't feel a sense of loyalty to the Ducks organization at this point, I'm merely saying that if the guy wants to keep playing but the Ducks can't come up with the money to make it work, push comes to shove, I think it's entirely possible that Selanne might change his mind and play for someone else. Granted, I don't think he would do so 2-3 years from now at 45, but after this season or next, if the Ducks can't make it work financially, I absolutely believe that he would entertain other options if he still had the hunger to play. Yzerman and Lidstrom? Seriously? It just wouldn't be nearly as hard for him as it would be for someone like Yzerman or Lidstrom, because after all, it wouldn't be the first time he went to a new team, it'd be the fifth time. I'm not trying to take anything away from Teemu as I think he's a great, great hockey player and he seems like a great person off the ice. I don't think anyone wouldn't absolutely love to have the guy on their favorite team; he's one of the greats and a pure class act. But no matter what he may say now (and what else would you expect him to be saying now?), if he wants to keep playing and it's not looking like it's going to work out in Anaheim, if there are other intriguing options out there, I don't think it'd be outlandish at all to think that Teemu Selanne might switch teams for the fifth time. None the less, I think you've got to be dreaming if you think he'd come to Detroit at this stage in the game. I mean, sure, it's possible and there are reasons to believe it'd be on the shortlist, and it may still be, but I kinda doubt that we'll be signing Flip to an extension and that would be a large part of the draw to get him here. Furthermore, he's not going to want to join a rebuilding team at 42, and I think it's getting harder and harder to suggest that we're not in a sort of rebuilding stage right now. It's too bad though. He'd look great in red and white and he might be able to help Flip be better than he knows how to be on his own. Dreams... Edit: I think it's also worth bringing Chris Chelios up as equivalent players who made dramatic shifts. First of all, just him coming to Detroit at all was no small feat, and he was no spring chicken when that deal went down. And at a much later age when he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to prove to anyone, no need for money, and really only shame to gain, he left Detroit to try and make something else work. Guys who want to play well into their 40s are hungrier to play than just about anyone, and despite their best intentions, they're not going to be tied down by a feeling of loyalty. If Selanne wants to play and believes he still can, he will find a place to play, Anaheim or not.

And since no one has ever changed their mind before... Athletes at times can be overzealous when expressing their thoughts on their own futures, such as when they say they'll never play for so and so, or they'll only play for so and so. Or that they'll play for 8 more years when they're 42.

I don't think Howard's great or as good as his biggest fans here do, but he's at the very least more than capable of being an above average to very good goalie, and he has shown that he's capable of greatness in certain moments. I also feel like he's gotten a raw deal here from the start too. Babcock's consistently rode him very hard, rarely giving him a break, especially in his first couple years when he should've been given a lower-pressure role to adjust to the NHL, and he should not have been dropped into the playoffs as early as he was. I tend to think that he'd be a bit steadier now if he had been given a smoother transition into the NHL. And again, just day to day, I think he'd be a bit better if given breaks a little more often. I think Babcock does a lot of things right, but I don't like the way he manages goalies. Obviously it's a rough situation right now with injuries and McCollum and a shortened schedule and more pressure, but I just don't think it's good to have your goalie starting the vast majority of games unless he's one of the very few elite goalies who have proven that they can handle it. Those goalies proved it in the playoffs; Howard hasn't done that yet. But like I said, I don't think he's had a fair shake heading into the playoffs. He was the only bright spot last year in the playoffs, but that's unfortunately not saying much either. In any event, I don't think you can hold much of what's gone on this season against him. He's been fairly good with a crap team in front of him that gets crappier with every injury. And he hasn't gotten a single break this year so far!!! Just because he's not stealing every game and racking up shutouts against all odds this season doesn't make him "average."

It's weird because on paper, it doesn't seem like we need offense, as we seem to have a fairly capable group and compared to our defense, it looks outstanding. But something about this offense hasn't clicked for awhile. I personally don't really dig the chemistry so much and think we could stand to beef up the Wings and ship out some centers so we can split Z and D and not have to second-guess it. But yeah, I am not really bothered we didn't chase Jagr. Even if he's contributing still, I can't say I've ever been much a fan of his. If I had known we weren't going to sign anyone else, I'd be all for it though...

Missed most of the game last night and haven't had time to watch it on the DVR, but from what little I've gathered, it seems like it was a much better effort than the first game. Let's hope they keep it up tonight. All of these damn injuries are for the birds though. As if this team doesn't have enough problems with a crap defense and inconsistent work ethics. Gotta rise above though. No one can be floating at this point.

It takes a certain talent to be as utterly mediocre in as many ways as Ericsson is. What do you even say about this? After last night's disaster of a game, he hurt himself by stepping on a puck and slipping into the boards. That really is just exactly what I would expect Jonny Ericcson to do at this point. I'm not even remotely surprised. I'm not even mad. How could I be? It's Ericsson. This is what he does.

What is Babcock supposed to do if these guys don't want to skate hard? What can he do if they're so absent-minded out there that they can't even get the fundamentals down? What Babs has wanted to do for awhile was dump guys that don't work and bring in guys that will work hard. Holland hasn't helped there at all, which Babock has openly been "pissed off" about for some time. It's not as simple as just having any old parts and then having a coach magically make them work great as a whole. In reality, sometimes you just have the wrong parts. Any great coach will tell you that. If you've got a lot of guys that don't skate hard, then clearly, you have too many wrong parts. Babcock can't make trades, he can't sign guys and he can't release guys. That's Holland's job, and as far as I'm concerned, he's been doing a piss poor job of it since 2009. He hasn't adjusted to the true reality of the cap era, and he's rested on his laurels. It's not worth debating his past success at this point, because it doesn't mean anything if you can't get the job done in the present. He's been dropping the ball again and again since 2009, and one could say that was when the cap era truly started to have an effect on the Wings. Before that, we had a lot of the pieces already in place, had 2 capable Stanley Cup-winning goaltenders playing for practically nothing because they were old, and we were lucky enough to be the first team to figure out a loophole in the cap. And when the cap kicked off originally, we were paying Z what, $2 million a year or something? We got really lucky when it first kicked off, any way you shake it. Now that we have to operate in a similar fashion as the rest of the league, how have things gone? How has Holland responded? Can you really say he's done all he can to ice the best team the last few years? And bear in mind, I'm not even talking about last summer. He went out and tried and got turned down by the top guys for reasons that were reasonably out of his control. But he had multiple years before that where he failed to address issues and failed to begin setting up for a smooth transition into the post-Lidstrom era. They say great players make the players around them better. In Lidstrom's case, I think he was also making the GM look better. It's obviously going to not be as bad as it was last night every night, but if you can't see how many glaring holes and issues there are in this team, you're not watching hockey. This teams looked shaky the last few years, but Lidstrom really was a player that was great enough alone to be a sort of glue that held the ship together. But he's gone now, and this ship is a mess, and Holland's running out of time to prove he can run a team in the cap era.

This is good news. Eaves is one of a handful of guys that always seemed to go above and beyond to try out there. I've loved his work ethic since picking him up and he's the type of guy who deserves ice time if he continues to work as hard as he always has in the past.

Yep. Way too many guys are way too comfortable. You always hear the line's like, "that would've never happened under Bowman's watch" and attribute it to Bowman just being one of the most masterful coaches in the history of sports. But I think in some cases, it boils down to Bowman didn't put up with crap, and if a guy was lazy or half-assing it, he got benched or worse yet, traded the hell out here. If you didn't buy into his system, if you didn't work hard, you weren't coddled. You weren't rewarded with new contracts. You weren't given the same playing time game in and game out. You got benched or traded and all along the way, he was going to be screwing with your head at every opportunity to remind you whose boss. I've said it numerous times in the last day, and I've been emphatic about it after one game because it's a problem that goes back well before even last season: there are too many guys floating out there and not giving anything close to their best effort. Some say that Babcock's message isn't getting to them anymore, but to me, that just doesn't matter at all. These guys are professionals getting paid a ton of money to play a game. The coach can be an absolute joke as far as I'm concerned and they still should be giving 100% every night. If you're not giving 100% and complaining about the coach, then as far as I'm concerned you can pack your bags and leave. If you give 100% and do what the coach is telling you and it's clear that the coaches strategies just aren't working, then I'll look at the coach. But if you're just floating out there, not even trying to pay mind to the fundamentals, then you have no business whatsoever complaining about the coach. You need an attitude adjustment, and if booting your ass out of town is what it takes, so be it. I'm really just completely sick of seeing these guys half-ass it. This is not a new problem, and we no longer have the talent to get away with it. Last night was a joke. It'd be funnier if it was a fluke, but when the same old guys make the same mistakes and fail to skate hard, just like the last few years, it really ought to make any fan angry. Again, these guys are getting paid a tremendous amount of money to play a game. There's no excuse for them to play it as lackadaisically as they have the last few years, and now that we've lost the core of our defense, there's no one to hide behind. There's very few guys left on this team that appear to have any pride. The rest are a joke, and to them I say, good riddance. I'd rather have young guys up here working hard, even if it means losing games as they mature, than watch a bunch of underachievers coast and flop around on the ice.

Aside from Dats and Z, who aren't going anywhere, we have no guys who are worth anything alone. Flip and Franzen are the only guys we have that we can live without that will be of any interest to teams that might deal top-end talent, and they both come with significant caveats. Flip's a very valuable trade asset generally, but not in the final year of his contract, hence why I was suggesting moving him the last couple years especially considering our depth at center and the impending retirement of Lidstrom. Franzen alone won't be worth as much as he would've a couple years ago either, so again, only thing that might work, and it's still a stretch at this point, is a package with Franzen and Flip and a maybe a prospect and draft pick. The idea of Cleary having any value is absurd. He might find a way to get it going down the stretch, but even if a team would trade for him, it's not going to net us much in return. Bottom line, we need major help on D. We need a top-pairing guy who can come in and stabilize the defense and play a lot of minutes. No way that comes in without Franzen and Flip going out, and they won't go alone. We don't have much to work with at this point and we're up against a wall, desperate. The asking price will be high, but Holland doesn't have many choices. Franzen's been floating and inconsistent and it makes sense to just cut the experiment off if we can add a solid defenseman. Flip, as said, is in the final year of his contract, and there's no guarantee that we'll sign him anyways. Sure, we "want" to keep him, but if he expects a big raise and our defense hasn't improved, I have to wonder if we'll even be able to afford him under the new cap. It's early enough in this weird season that Flip might have more value to a team looking to add a strong, experienced 2-way guy especially if they think they can sign him this summer. And worst case scenario, I think Flip gets dealt at the deadline even if no other moves are made. If nothing gets done before, I don't think this team has a prayer of landing in the playoffs, so dealing Flip for even mid to low draft picks is a better scenario for the team than holding on to him until July 1 just for the sake of holding on to him. They can still try and sign him this summer if they really want to, after all. But any way you shake it, we're between a rock and a hard place. We need to shake the team up, but we have no leverage and very few worthwhile assets. Add to that the likelihood of a dry free-agent season and we could be in serious trouble for some time. We haven't been a destination spot for a few years now, and it's only going to get worse the way things are going. That's why I really think Holland has to do all he can to make a big move to improve the D. He's got to send a message to this team and the rest of the league that he still wants to win. These current Wings players (sans Dats and Z) could really use a reminder that they're expendable; maybe it'll finally get their feet moving and they'll magically start "hearing Babcock's message."

Not to take anything away from Monster, but by the time he was in, I don't think the Blues were really trying too hard either. They were still skating circles around us, but half as fast as they were earlier in the game.

I think it was in the first, Colaiacovo had all the time in the world behind the net with the puck and a wide open winger on the left and he makes a breakout pass that was nowhere close to the winger. I didn't know what to say. It was as sloppy of a play as I'd seen. Literally, no pressure, no mad rush, no one forechecking, no one on the winger, and a terrible-awful-no-good-very-bad pass. Mind-numbing. They're professionals. If they don't show 100%, why are they still here? I don't care if the coach is a joke (I'm not saying I think Babcock is at all), if you don't go out and give 100%, you should get your ass shipped out. There's no excuse in the NHL when these guys are making as much money as they are. The effort many of these players have been putting forth for years now is inexcusable, and the fact that they are still on the Wings roster is very much determined by Ken Holland.

He looked awful, sure, but he's got potential to be a descent player for us. I'll give him a break. The whole team was just terrible and the defense in general felt non-existant. I mean, literally, there were times where it felt almost as if we didn't have a defense out there. It's easy to single Quincey out but he was hardly the only problem and there's a good chance he'll improve and make an impact.

I think Babcock was reaching for Holland's neck in his dreams last night.

I'm confused. If I'm understanding things correctly going off of what many here are saying, the Wings were the only team locked out? Is that right? So we're the only team going through this, so nothing to worry about? St. Louis wasn't literally in the exact same boat as we were? They didn't have the exact same number of guys playing in leagues as us? And again, weren't locked out? Just checking.

Who else are we going to trade for a descent defenseman? Really? It sucks to lose offense when your offense isn't the best to begin with, but we can stand to lose guys up front when we have a defense as weak as ours is now. Who's expendable and has value outside of Franzen and Flip, who has far less value now as he's on the last year of a contract? I think it's foolish to think he'll be bought out too, but I think it's very unlikely at this point that he isn't a prime trade candidate.

I'm not a Quincey hater (yet...) and I think he has potential to be a descent player, but none the less, that is a mind-numbing stat. The times they are a-changing, indeed...

No way on the 1st. It's a nice idea, but just no way. Not even close to enough NHL experience. If a team is going to move a top-pairing guy, they're going to want someone who can come in and contribute right away, not a guy that hasn't played an NHL game and another with a handful. To get a real meaningful, impact player, I think Holland's going to have to ship out Franzen, Flip and a prospect, possibly a pick too. Don't forget the desperate position we're in either. No one's going to go out of their way to give us a great deal, hence why I and others have been hoping Holland would've been smarter about making adjustments the last four years so we wouldn't be stuck in this position.