gcom007

Anyone who thought our D wasn't going to be a mess was kidding themselves. I admit, I was trying to be optimistic as time went on too, but let's get real, losing Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom is just a huge blow, especially when you add nothing even remotely comparable to even Stuart. But we talk about that and we don't often talk about the fact that great players like Lidstrom make the guys around them better. So what are these guys going to look like without the Lidstrom-bonus magic skill points? Well, I guess we are starting to really figure that out. I can't imagine that Holland isn't shifting in his seat tonight, and can't imagine Babcock doesn't want to strangle him right now either.

He's the only one out there that looks good right now.

And I'm not surprised at all...

And Howard's never been the best at managing rebounds. There's going to be no room for that this year with this defense.

Posted the same thing a page or two back. Really bizarre still. I wish they'd semi-retire certain guys numbers like Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, Osgood, McCarty even. Some of these guys that won many Cups and were very important parts of this team for a long time. Why not give their numbers a year or two at least? Not a big deal obviously, but it'd be a nice gesture.

Wow, Quincey, wow... Just wow.

Hell of a breakout pass a minute ago...goodness, if this is any indication, the defense is going to be as rough as most expected it to be. Thankfully, Howard looks sharp enough so far to compensate.

Wow, a hockey game. This feels unnatural. Going to just keep reminding myself that they had a short camp and no real pre-season games and there's injuries and new people and it'll take time to adjust. And it's still weird seeing a number 18 out there that's not Maltby.

Yeah, I thought of that right after I posted and the awkward discomfort hit. Hard to get that image out of my head him after the Tigers won the ALCS. Was about as bittersweet of a moment I've witnessed in sports...

Yep. The guy's a punk, and as much as we hated playing against him, I think we'll like having him on our team. Just think how much we would've hated Maltby if he was on another team? The guy was a huge dick out there all the time! And it was awesome! He became one of my favorites. There's elements to Tootoo that are questionable for certain, but I'm feeling more optimistic than not about how well he'll fit in here. LOVE IT.

There's no way anyone can say this team is playoff-ready even if they find a way to make the playoffs, and that's really more important. If a lot of things go right and we avoid major injuries, we certainly have as good of a shot as a lot of teams in the West to make the playoffs. Any way you shake it, this schedule is going to lend itself to fluky happenings and the Wings could easily end up on the right end of that given our offensive talent. But again, given that we haven't done much at all come playoff time the last couple years with a far, far better D, it's next to impossible to imagine us making it out of the first round if we are lucky enough to make it in. What's going to be really interesting to watch this season is how the team responds to losing Lidstrom. Will it be a wakeup call for a blatantly underachieving bunch of skaters, or will they flounder further without his leadership and the safety net his insane talent provided? Will Howard elevate his game and find a way to be as strong as he has in the past with a much weaker defense, or will his technical flaws become more glaring and problematic? If skaters and Howard can come out on the upside of change, than this team as a whole could potentially make some noise. There's a lot of talent, but it's been profoundly unrealized for awhile. Whether that boils down to motivation or mental issues or age or injuries or coaching, who knows? Again, optimistically, they do have a lot of potential thanks to a lot of talent, but that talent is going to have to be all in and running at close to 100% consistently for this team to have success this year. Hopefully the shock of having to adapt to a Lidstrom-less team will help them elevate their game. It'll be very interesting to watch play out, especially over this weird schedule. And as much as I've been frustrated with Holland's handling of things the last 3-4 years, it's very, very, very highly unlikely that he'll get the boot after this year. If everything goes as poorly as possible and he has another rough off-season and then another poor Wings season, then you've got to wonder, but we're not there yet, and it's not impossible that all of this change won't be a wakeup call to him as well. I mean, like the guy or not, I think we all can say, let's hope so. And I don't think Babs would get axed before Holland if things went down the tubes this season and next, including the off-season. Babcock's been pretty vocal to the media about his dissatisfaction with the makeup of this team and Holland's lack of movement on quality guys that have been available. It's hard to imagine that he's not far more vocal behind the scenes about that matter. If Holland gets booted, it's going to be for the same things that Babcock's been complaining about, and if ownership holds an opinion strong enough to fire a GM, why would they fire a successful coach who agrees with them? That is, of course, if that's what it comes to for Holland. And correct me if I'm wrong, but even as far as coaching and Holland are connected, wasn't it "sorta-kinda" the Holland and Jimmy D camp that went with Dave Lewis over Barry Smith despite what Bowman suggested? Early signs of a pattern, perhaps? Lewis was the "friendlier" choice as he was the "friendlier" coach, and many in upper management seem really caught up in preserving the whole Red Wings family thing, or something...it's a really nice idea, but in the cap era more than ever, it's not really realistic. From what I've seen, I think Babcock has the mind to know what a successful team needs, and I think he has the stomach to handle the change necessary to make it happen. Holland may have the mind for it, and his good sense has lead to a lot of success, but when push comes to shove and you've got to make some changes, he's yet to prove he's willing to go out on a limb and make some tough decisions. The only time we've seen him be aggressive is when he was completely backed up against the wall this last off-season, and he failed to close any meaningful deals. Whether it was his fault or not doesn't matter if it continues to be a pattern. Like I said, it's almost certainly not going to happen after this year even if all goes as poorly as possible, but if the trend continues, then possibly sooner rather than later, his time as GM here will be up. "Survival of the fittest" isn't a contest of strength (or past success), it's a contest of adaptability. I'm waiting for someone to say we need new owners. Has that been done yet?

Others have said much of what I am thinking about "building from within" sounding like a bit of a crock in light of his pursuit of countless big names, so I won't go over it again. But, "the price wasn't right"? Where do you get that? He's thrown everything and the kitchen sink at many guys and they signed elsewhere or were traded elsewhere. "The price wasn't right" makes it sound like Holland backed out of these deals when that simply isn't the case at all. He's even said as much himself. The "build from within" amounts to nothing but damage control in light of Ken Holland's actions this summer. And what is it they say about actions and words? (P.S. I like White and Quincey, a lot in fact, but to bill them as replacements for the holes left by Raffie and Stuart is a lot to put on them and quite a stretch if you ask me. Again, I like the guys and the signings a lot, but given the holes that have been left, that that's the best that can seemingly be done is worrisome.)

I will say in defense of the Holland defenders that I have no idea why people keep bringing up Parise and Suter in this argument. I mean, sure, it's loosely relevant, but it's scratching the surface of a broader issue and ultimately, their decision to sign elsewhere was among the least of things you can blame Ken Holland for given the circumstances. It's a stupid argument and it's utterly non-sensical to continue to suggest that we didn't offer enough money or didn't push hard enough. Suter wanted to head home to Minnesota and avoid media attention (so we pretty much lost this one when we decided to start calling Detroit "Hockeytown") and Parise only left the Devils to play with his friend in his home state. If Suter signed in Detroit or anywhere else, he was staying with the Devils. How this incredibly obvious and simple conclusion isn't enough for some people is truly mind-blowing to me.

I agree about Kronwall; he's a great defensemen that has been integral to our success over the years. However, he's also proven to be a bit fragile in the past. And we didn't just lose Lidstrom. In the last year and change, we also lost Rafalski and Stuart. Rafalski was a star and a big name guy long before coming to Detroit and could've been most teams top defenseman and Stuart could easily be many teams #2; at worst, Stuart's among the best 2nd pairing defensemen out there. So what still bothers me isn't so much that we haven't replaced Lidstrom, it's that we haven't replaced 3 of our top 4 defensemen in any way shape or form in the last year. It'd be one thing if we had been able to zero in on even one guy that could sit in the middle of the talent pool of the pack we lost; I'm not even talking a Suter level guy here. The problem to me is that we haven't even come close to filling any of our defensive holes, again, left by the departure of 3 of our top 4 guys, including one who's among the best players to ever live, who at retirement was still a bona fide superstar capable of being the best player on the ice still nearly every night. Everyone keeps focusing on Lidstrom because it is a huge a dramatic change we're being forced to accept, but what worries me far more is that we haven't even touched on the loss of Rafalski and Stuart. Now, I certainly didn't expect Holland to just pull another Rafalski out of his hat the day after he retired, but again, the writing has been on the wall for awhile, and it's been screaming at everyone since Rafalski retired. We knew Stuart almost certainly wouldn't be back for at least a year now if not more if you count most people's gut feeling. We just watched Rafalski retire. And Lidstrom was firmly in his 40's. Maybe we didn't know for sure if Lidstrom would be back, but the departure of both Rafalski and Stuart alone would warrant some meaningful replacement, even if Lidstrom was returning, and we haven't even gotten that. And I know people hate it and love to dismiss it, but I just can't help but think that Holland could have done something prior to this summer to better prepare for this. Again, at least something to address the collective loss of Stuart and Rafalski. I'm not saying the guy should be tarred and feathered or that he's a terrible GM overall at all, but when a team like Detroit that prides itself on being competitive every year watches 3 of their 4 top defensemen leave and nothing is done to address it, you've got to admit at the very least that this is hardly Holland's finest hour. And before we assume once again that we're just being ungrateful fans, don't forget the Babcock was "pissed" (direct quote: "I'm pissed off." -Mike Babcock, http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41032-Brent-Burns-trade-moves-Sharks-closer-to-Stanley-Cup.html) last summer when Holland didn't make moves that could have been made, when Babcock said all along that they needed to add a guy to strengthen their defense. We still had Lidstrom and Stuart at that point. How do you think he feels about everything now? You think he's happy? Sure, you can't get upset about Suter given the circumstances, but Babcock obviously has felt for awhile that changes need to be made as well, and nothing happened. Again, how do you think he feels now? And when do we stop defending Ken Holland by suggesting that it's of benefit to us that he's been conservative? And why is it so hard for people to admit that even the best can struggle, and even the best can drop the ball, and even the best need to change? There's a tremendous difference between "I think you suck" and "I think you can do better." You know what George Martin, primary record producer of The Beatles, said even to the obscenely successful band, The Beatles??? "I think you can do better." Hey, Ken Holland, I think you can do better.

Not to bag on Howard as I like the guy and think he's very good, but he's yet to fully prove himself in the post-season, whereas Osgood has, including in an outstanding 2009 run where he in many ways carried a crippled team to game 7 of the Finals before succumbing by 1 goal. Howard hasn't gotten much help though in his time, though again, in 2009, Osgood didn't either when you consider how many major injuries this team was dealing with, including to Lidstrom who actually missed games in the Playoffs. I think Howard has what it takes to win on a team that can get the job done, but he's yet to prove he's an elite goalie when it counts most. And considering the ups and downs of many goalies careers, I still think it's a little tough to accurately judge Howard. He was great for most of the season last year before injury, but never returned to previous form once he was back in the lineup. He wasn't bad in the playoffs but he wasn't any better than the rest of the team, and the team thoroughly lost that series. In any event, any way you shake it at this point, we're going to learn a lot about Jimmy Howard this season. Even if Holland makes some moves to strengthen the D, they're not going to be as strong as they've been the last few years. If Howard can make up for it and keep us in the playoff hunt and be a lights out post-season goalie, he'll deserve to be named among the elite. Until then, despite flashes of brilliance, it's tough to say he's among the best. The potential is obviously there, but the consistency and post-season success has yet to really surface. But generally speaking, I think we're far too quick to throw out the term "elite goalie" in general these days. So many so-called "elite goalies" haven't had post-season success and if anything, have bombed in the post-season. Unless you're Hasek level great, I think it's tough to say a goalie is elite that hasn't taken his team deep into the playoffs. It's just too important of a part of the game to ignore. Hasek was able to give a lousy team a chance every night in his prime. He was elite despite not winning a Cup. I don't think you can say that about that many guys today. But people didn't say that about Osgood either, and he has 3 Cup rings, 2 as a starter, was on the brink of a 3rd as well as a Conn Smythe trophy, and in his last Cup winning series, started the series by shutting out the powerhouse Penguins twice in a row. So Luongo is elite, they say, but what is he best known for in the post-season?

Sure, there are ways he can try to force his hand, but If he sits out, he can just be suspended without pay too. Nashville doesn't have to move him and likely won't without a killer deal on the table. And sure, "pay me now" looks better, but it doesn't change the fact that there are rules and consequences for breaking them. I'm not saying he was dumb for signing the deal at all, I'm saying that if he absolutely had no interest in playing for Nashville, he wouldn't have signed it knowing full well that Nashville could and likely would match it. And isn't it also logical that Nashville has talked to him a fair amount this summer about whether he's willing to stick it out in Nashville or not? Again, barring the ability for cash to be part of a trade next year, I think Weber's a Predator for a minimum of 3-4 years. If they can demand cash to be part of any trade next year, than yes, this isn't over at all and he's gone next summer. Nashville still wins. They keep a star for another year when they really need him and have much more time to negotiate a deal that would benefit them long run.

Unless Nashville can recoup cash on a trade in a year to cover that signing bonus (again, not sure what the rules are on cash serving as part of a trade), this is certainly over for a little bit. If Nashville wasn't interested in getting more than a year out of him, I don't think they would have matched with that signing bonus, that is, again, unless they could be compensated for it from a trading partner in a year. If they can trade him next year and demand that their trading partner includes compensation for the signing bonus in the deal, then he'll be dealt next summer at the first possible chance. If not, he'll be a Predator for awhile. Whether or not he was willing to sign multi-year deals with Nashville in years past is inconsequential so long as he's an RFA and Nashville holds his rights. Weber and his agent were fully aware of this when they signed that offer sheet, make no mistake about it. They might've wanted to land in Philly, but they knew there was as good of a chance that they'd stay in Nashville. That's how the system works.

And on a personal note, I'm kinda glad Nashville kept him as I'll likely be moving to Nashville for a bit next month. I'll likely go to some Predators games while down there, so it'll be nice to see Weber out there. And while I'll remain a die hard Wings fan, I'll be fine with cheering Nashville on when they're not playing the Wings. As much as I hated losing in the 1st round, I felt much better about losing to that Nashville team than I did the Sharks. All things considered, I think Nashville's a tough, respectable team on the ice. It's easy to say that they'll have problems this year, but given our roster right now and the seasons we're coming off of when our roster was far, far better, who are we to talk?

Exactly. Perhaps he was excited about Philly, but if he had no interest in being in Nashville for too long, he wouldn't have signed the deal. It's incredibly simple logic. He may be surprised, but unless he's a total moron which I highly doubt, he can't be shocked. On another note, does anyone know what the official rules are about trades in relation to cash being involved? If Nashville traded him next year, could they ask for the amount of the signing bonus to be part of the trade from the other team? I'm not too well read on all of the rules and I never really knew how that element worked.

I wouldn't have bought this if we had a decent top defenseman to minimize the pain from Lidstrom leaving. I still think this team has a solid core in Datsyuk and Zetterberg for some time, but that's if Holland can get the right pieces around them. I think the key to success in the Cup-era more than ever is adaptability. Sometimes teams just need little tweaks here and there to shake things up and balance things out. I would've moved Flip years ago for more scoring power or in some package to bring in a Lidstrom replacement. Even if Flip isn't a fluke, by the time Datsyuk and Zetterberg are at a point where they're not still elite centers in this game, Flip's going to be well past a far less sunny prime anyways. Elite players still find ways to compete long into their careers, so Dats and Z won't fade fast if you ask me. Fluke or not, Flip will fade sooner as he just isn't even close to Dats or Z as a player in any way at all. And he'll be 29 this season after all; it's not like he's 24 coming off his first solid season.

Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate. But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money? I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen. Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen. And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts. But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now… Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act. So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season. I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team. He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski. But Lidstrom? To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well. He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.

If you're going to be giving up a lot more goals, you better damn well start scoring more as well.

Not that I think we should sign him, but it's a shame that he's getting so much grief here about his time as a Wing. He never really got a chance to get going so it's hard to say how things might have ended up if not for such a freak incident. It wasn't as if he pulled his groin because he was too old or something; he got sliced open by a skate blade! Who's to say how he might have looked at the end of the season had he been able to get comfortable with his game here? Some say he started slow, and his conditioning wasn't all there, but for an older player, I'm willing to overlook it if he has legs in the playoffs when it counts. I tend to think he would have risen to the occasion if not for the rather major setback. It was a real shame that it had to end that way. I'm not bitter at all; it was just an unfortunate situation that really was out of everyone's control. It could have happened to anyone.

For as much as people here talk about how much they hate Bettman, they sound more and more like him every day.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy for a second that anyone can honestly say they're comfortable with our chances of being a successful team with our defense consisting of Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. I mean, really...? Really...? I'm not knocking them as individual players right now, I'm just saying, look at that group and remind yourself that it's the core of your defense right now. Really consider that Lidstrom and Stuart are gone from that group. Maybe it hasn't fully sunk in yet. Maybe you're good at forgetting how lost this team looked last year in March without Lidstrom? I don't blame you; we all wanted to forget that. Let's just forget about making the playoffs for a second... Are we even a .500 team with that defense? Maybe in a couple years with more NHL development for the youngans, but next year? Seriously? Don't forget or overlook how important Lidstrom's contribution to our offense was as well. I don't want to s*** on anyone trying to be optimistic; it's a noble thing and I will cheer this team on next season no matter what. But none the less, I don't think people have really accepted what we're going to be dealing with next year, nor are people willing to admit how much Holland has mishandled the whole situation the last 3-4 years. You can talk all you want about how "smart" it is to not make ridiculous reactionary moves now, but we never should've been in this position. And we've been talking about how "smart" Holland is for sitting on his hands because of the "cap" or some player's "potential" for four summers in a row now, and here we are: Lidstrom's gone, Stuart's gone, Hudler's gone again (I'm completely okay with that one, but he still scored goals and that hasn't been our strong suit...). We didn't land our primary free agent targets. We added Tootoo and an older Samuelson (and a good backup goalie, but hopefully that'll be a fairly inconsequential addition this year). Our defense as of now features Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. No Lidstrom. No Stuart. Very, very, very few options left. Smart?