gcom007

Sure, Franzen's there, but we could've signed Franzen and let Hudler walk while trading Flip and kept Hossa too. I'd rather gamble on keeping Franzen for a sub-$4 million cap hit, but clinging to Hudler and Flip over a superstar like Hossa? Pure insanity.

This is silly, knee-jerk, panic-fueled malarky that has absolutely no relation whatsoever with reality. I don't care if we lose 5 more in a row, it's still early and this team is still too talented to not put up a fight down the stretch that will put them in playoff contention.

I'm as pissed as someone who's utterly and completely underwhelmed and flummoxed can be. Actually, I'm just flummoxed. I can't get pissed or panic over the start of this season because I just can't take this team that seriously right now. It's not that I don't love them as much as I have since I can remember, but what do you really say about this team so far? It still feels like a pre-season team, and I don't mean that in a positive or optimistic way at all. It just feels like a patched together team that's lacking character at this early stage. And like him or not, losing a guy like Rafalski was definitely a bigger deal than many would like to make it out to be. Ian White was a good pickup for the money either way, but he's no Rafalski.

Dats starts slow, but he'll pick it up. I guarantee you that.

I'm not worried at all about Datsyuk and Kronwall. Datsyuk tends to start a bit slower and heat up and Kronwall will pick it up down the stretch. My concerns lie with Zetterberg and Franzen. I'm wondering if Zetterberg's ongoing back issues will inhibit him from being as good as he should be more each passing year. I'm also worried that Franzen has the mental ability to be a consistent goal scorer. He's got the technical tools, but as time's gone on, he seems to struggle more and more with the mental toughness that allows for consistent play.

Note: in any other year since the cap, I would never start thinking that we might see a trade this early on even with the uncharacteristic losing streak, but what makes this year different is that Holland has been open about the fact that he didn't get what he wanted this summer, he's got a lot of cap space for a change and he's got some guys he could move that will be free agents next summer. I really can't help but think that if we continue to lose or if we simply continue to struggle to win the majority of our next 5-10 games, Holland will do something. And if in that span of time Flip doesn't score himself out of the talks given that we're in desperate times when it comes to scoring, I think he'll be packaged up and sent out. Not singling out his overall play so much as the fact that he's the guy that will have to be in a package to get anyone worthwhile and thus far, it's same old same old for him. Quick hot streak followed by a longer dry streak. Not trying to single him out as Dats, Z and Franzen aren't scoring either and they're paid far more to do so, but none of those guys are going to get traded. Hopefully they can just work this out sooner rather than later. I don't think we're as good of a team as we've been the last few years, but we should be far better than a 5-5-1 team that's lost 6 straight this early on without any major injuries to blame it on. Thank goodness Howard has figured out how to play better in the regular season again otherwise this could be even uglier.

Wow. Starting to wonder how long it'll be before they make a trade just to mix things up and send a message. What's nuts to me isn't so much that we're losing so much as that these games are all close and they're not playing that poorly. It's not as if there's this huge mess, but something isn't clicking. Given that we really don't have countless holes due to injuries like we did in the past when we'd have these losing streaks, you've got to wonder what's going on out there and in their heads. They look lost. And again, the whole situation is just bizarre; it's too mundane to panic, yet there's blatantly something missing from this team. I don't know if it's chemistry or confidence or what, but they really need to turn it around fast. I don't buy the whole concern about being in playoff position in November or December even, but if they don't get it together fast and get a streak going in the other direction, we're going to have absolutely no wiggle room when our late-winter injury spell inevitably creeps up. I'd rather not be up against the wall with the team as is let alone a bunch of AHL fill ins.

I'll stick with active players who could come back and actually contribute in reality tomorrow if a miracle happened. That said... Marian Hossa.

Wow. Just saw this. Love the cap hit. That's honestly a steal so long as he stays healthy.

Well, I'm pretty excited. With the iOS 5 update hitting today, Apple TV has been updated to now include NHL Gamecenter. In addition to being able to stream live games with a Gamecenter Live subscription, you can also buy old games on iTunes. For example, purchase all 6 games of the 2008 Stanley Cup series for $9.99 through iTunes. I am pretty excited. To anyone looking to get more access to Gamecenter Live on their TV's who doesn't want to use video game systems or anything like that, I'd highly recommend Apple TV for $99, especially if you're an iPhone or iPad user.

I was as dissatisfied as anyone with him after last year, but it sounds like he really busted his ass this summer. I don't think Babcock would defend him at this point after last year if he didn't believe that Hudler's putting in a hell of a lot of hard work off the ice to improve on his weaknesses. So pre-season aside, I'm more than willing to give him a fair chance this year. I'm very open-minded and I'd love to see him succeed. However, at this point, I couldn't begin to guess which way it'll go. I don't think we'll know until late-November or December.

http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/4663/why-shanny-split

http://detnews.com/article/20110919/SPORTS0103/109190329/1128/rss16/Wings--Patrick-Eaves-embraces-change-and-scores Yes.

I am really glad that Pavel is doing what he can to honor Salei. It's a bittersweet but fitting tribute from someone who is obviously very respectful of what it means to pay honor to those lost in this tragedy. Don't even know what else to say. While it's been a couple weeks, whenever I think about this whole situation, it's still just incredibly sad. It's one of those events that really puts a lot of things in perspective.

I'll have to file this away as another example for when old what's his name Flip super fan says no one in Wings management ever calls out Flip. But he's right on all three, in particular Franzen. Flip needs to bounce into being a player he's never been. Hudler has to be the player he was shaping up to be before leaving. But Franzen really needs to bounce back to his previous form.

In reading the press release, the contact info for the Red Wings PR Coordinator, Richard Bowness, was listed. Probably a good place to start if you feel lead to express your disappointment in this partnership. I would encourage everyone to respectfully state your position if you do call. And to be clear, I do encourage anyone and everyone who disapproves of this partnership to call in and protest this. I plan on letting them know that I will not be purchasing any Red Wing tickets or memorabilia so long as this partnership goes on, and I'm firmly committed to that. I will continue to bring up any points of contact worth writing to or calling. But again, please, be respectful! We as fans and oftentimes paying customers have a strong voice, but let's use it in a manner that reflects well on us. Anyways... Richard Bowness, PR Coordinator (313) 396-7518, office (313) 405-6929, cell http://www.clickondetroit.com/download/2011/0901/29049381.pdf

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/07/dream-dies-with-mccrimmon-in-russian-plane-crash Sad.

So many sad stories here. It's just unbelievable. My heart goes out to all the friends and family affected by this tragedy. I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like. We as fans may have had differences with these people as players or coaches or whatever from time to time, but I think we're all still respectful of the fact that these are still people just like you and I, and we certainly never wanted to see something like this happen. It's just awful. I don't even know what else to say, I'm still stunned by this. It's yet another reminder to never take a moment or breath for granted.

With the announcement of this relationship, how Amway conducts their business is very much now tied to the Red Wings image. That's why people are pissed. I imagine that simple fact is why this thread has been allowed to go on. There's no way to discuss this matter without acknowledging what Amway stands for. It's a profoundly negative association for this team to have. Even I'm shocked by how in a matter of days my respect level has sunk for this organization. Again, literally, Amway is the absolute last company I would ever want to be this closely associated with the Wings. A close second would be "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Wal-Mart." The Red Wings have been epitomized by pure class, but now it reeks of pure greed and negligence. At this point in time, I cannot believe that this is an organization that cares about the well-being of it's fans. No one with genuine care or concern for the people is going to want to team up this publicly with a company like Amway. This is about money, plain and simple, no matter the cost.

On nearly every point here I agee with you. We are on the same page when it comes to personal responsibility. Again, I don't give out any sort of magic golden victim passes to current and former Amway IBO's, and I'm in the same boat, though further along in the process, of paying off college debt myself. Interestingly enough, I too racked up some of that debt while pursuing a history degree from U of M (doubling in Econ, minor in PR) though I dropped history 3 and a half years in when I realized that I didn't want to be a lawyer and that was about all having a history degree would be good for given my ambitions, which changed drastically in light of these realizations. Anyways, the matter of difference that remains is that there are predatory companies out there that prey on the ignorant. That's probably the nicest way of putting it. We all know "those people" that just don't connect dots. They're not the types that think they'll get rich working 10 hours a week. Those people drop out almost immediately when they realize how much work it really is no matter if they were getting paid or not. All of the people who sign up for a couple months and drop a few hundred bucks in are of no consequence here. They're not the one's with the ugly stories. And again, I am by no means liberating any of these people of responsibility. I've outlined extensively the tactics Amway uses to sucker people in. Countless before me have outlined extensively how it's next to impossible to make money with Amway even when you do everything right and put in 60-80+ hours a week. It's no big secret that Amway is a giant scam. You can look at the situation in a general way and adopt a black and white approach, but I'll be respectfully frank and say that I think your opinion on the matter is based on weak-minded analysis. I get where you're coming from and your foundation is rock-solid, but the fact that people make personal choices by no means changes the fact that what Amway does isn't right. You can get all logical and legal about it and pretend to find solace in it, but at the end of the day, you're still left looking at a business built on the devestated lives of countless people who were dumb enough to buy into it. It's an ugly picture from both sides, but it can be addressed far easier by going after the purveyor rather than by blaming the individuals. Getting rid of Amway and schemes like it wouldn't solve every ignorant person's problems, but it's one less huge business who's whole operation is based on ripping off these ignorant people. And it certainly wouldn't kill capitalism. It wouldn't put a dent in it at all. Because again, when push comes to shove, Amway is more of a religious cult than a business participating in the capitalist system. They're "bodysnatchers," looking for people to bleed, not people to sell a product to. There really is a clear distinction. I don't know. I've tried. If you can't see this, and you really believe that it all boils down to the ups and downs of capitalism, then there's little more I can say.

A) I know a guy who lost $15,000 alone in products that people under him "bought" and didn't pay for. It wasn't in one fell swoop, but the way the numbers are incessantly distorted by the higher ups and with all the propaganda and "positivity," it's a matter that easily gets overlooked. And it's most certainly not a matter in which Amway/Quixtar was willing to help him out on at any point in time, despite him making the effort. I'm not sure what they have in print on the matter, but I think most anyone with a bit of knowledge on their inner workings understands that the written rules don't dictate the way the company is run. They're just their to satisfy lawmakers for a little while and give the impression of security and support. B) Opinion: maybe not technically illegal, but most positively should be. It's not hard to draw lines in the sand for good reason and enforce them with common sense. The intricacy of the legal manipulation of the law is where it gets muddy. The common sense, no-nonsense approach to enforcement would be simple: if you're more concerned with selling people on a business opportunity than selling the "product" you're supposedly selling, shut it down. It's bound to lead to scams and schemes that do society on whole no good. The source of any profits would clearly paint the picture too. C) Sure, again, it is their own problem if they get caught up in it, but it doesn't excuse the purveyor of the scheme. Amway's business is built on lies and deceit. Blogging is a trap that's completely self-contained. You're not surrounded by a circle of people that are trying to isolate you from those that bring common sense to the table. There's no huge propaganda machine working directly in people's lives in so many different ways to trap you in, much like a cult does. Amway's psychological attack strategies are fairly unique and one of the primary and most-alarming problems with the whole system. It's the poison that makes Amway most dangerous. D) again, not their fault? To me, it's the same as saying it's not a drug dealers fault people are drug addicts. It's as if it wasn't their plan to get people involved in such a manner. Make no mistake, everything Amway does is very intentional. It's not a happy accident they stumbled upon at all. Furthermore, again and again it's been illustrated how much the business hurts people, yet they continue to push it with more and more steam. I mean...I mean...I'm about to go caps lock here against my better judgement...I MEAN, WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO NOW GET LINKED UP WITH THE RED WINGS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? It's just another door they're trying to pry open to get into people's heads with a system they know will almost certainly be a drain on peoples money, time and relationships. They know the score. They know exactly what they're doing. Make no mistake about it.

Wow, straw man, wow. If you're going to go there, I guess I will to while further defending my position on this matter. The ideas of holding Amway responsible for their part in running a sleazy, manipulative business and holding individuals joining in that business responsible for their actions are not mutually exclusive. By no means would I suggest that all the Amway "IBO's" are any more victims of Amway's schemes as they are their own greed and gullibility. Ask any friend of mine that's gotten involved and then out of Amway if I ever gave them a pass and they'll tell you flat out that I didn't hold any punches in making them acknowledge what went profoundly wrong in their thought process. The main colossal flaw in your perspective is very simple to illustrate. Just consider drug dealers and drug addicts. Is anyone in their right mind going to pronounce the drug dealer innocent by virtue of capitalism and the drug addicts guilty because they made the choice to buy the drugs? Does that make any sense at all? I don't think so. Few things in life are black and white. Is it not possible that both have slipped up here? And in an effort to address a general problem, is it not reasonable to want to look for root causes? Is it not reasonable to objectively evaluate the whole of a problem to better understand it? Surely no more unreasonable than seemingly suggesting that we shouldn't criticize Amway, again, seemingly by virtue of the positive economic and social benefits of the capitalist system in general, as a wrong-doer. The only thing black and white about this topic to me is that there are a lot of people running the scheme and placing their hope on the scheme that are making harmful choices. The primary difference between the runners and the participants though is that for the most part, in the short-term, an Amway "IBO" is making choices that hurt themselves. But Amway's decision to resort to a business model that clearly is centered around exploiting people's weaknesses and circumventing people's typical consumer defenses. It's a business model that is underhanded and predatory. And lumping Amway in with capitalists is disrespectful to the essence of capitalism. The product Amway is most profiting on is (false) hope. The "products" you supposedly join Amway to sell are almost entirely purchased by and for the Amway IBO's, though internally you're simply "investing into your business." All the while you're also pouring more money into your Amway membership, a never-ending supply of "motivational and educational" material to help you grow your business, conferences to further inspire you, and if you manage to wind up sticking with it long enough to get some people under you, you're buying their "consumer products" too, and by that I mean far too often, the people under you that you're purchasing the vitamins for don't pay up. Nothing you can do about that. Oh well, just chalk it up to an "investment in your business." Bottom line, Amway is anything but a commendable capitalist venture. No corporation or business is perfect, but usually most businesses are actually trying to offer an actual product or service that is of some tangible substance to someone. And what truly is great about capitalism is that if you have a great product that a lot of people want, you will be rewarded for producing and selling it, and I take no issue with this concept at all. But again, when looked at wholistically and objectively, it's clear that Amway is not producing a product that offers consumers much in terms of utility. Indeed, their primary product, the hope and the dream, is essentially vaporware, to use the word generally. Furthermore, they have engineered their system to trip people's defenses up by infiltrating organizations, churches, clubs, basically any group of people that already has a built-in trust factor. They use that trust and social pressure against people, as well as every other little trick to take advantage of the less noble aspects of human nature. They know this. They've spent years crafting their "drug," and just as much time pin-pointing the easiest targets. They know exactly what they're doing. Again, it's predatory and underhanded. You can easily dig deeper and mine up plenty of information to suggest that their ill-informed financial choices hurt the society and economy on whole as well. Just like all the terrible real-estate loans given out in the late-90's that came back to haunt us in 2008, people made poor personal decisions that ended up hurting the economy and society on whole. In that case as well, it's absurd and illogical to only blame the banks for offering the loans or only blame those taking the loans for taking more than they could expect to reasonably handle. All parties involved made poor decisions. I don't care who you are or what side you're on, if you're making poor decisions, you're part of the problem. By this reasonable logic, I conclude that Amway is very much part of the problem. They are not the whole of the problem and their part in it does not minimize the role of personal responsibility at all. But they are the purveyors of a blatantly crooked business model that has been shown time and time again to have a tremendous negative effect on people's lives. That matter has nothing to do with capitalism, and as clearly illustrated, the logic that justifies their actions by virtue of capitalism opens plenty of doors to effects that I absolutely guarantee would send you crying to your knees if they came knocking on your doorstep. Quite simply, Amway does infinitely more harm than good for society. Most any reasonable, objective, informed person can logically understand and defend that accusation. To many of us, the logical side of it as well as the emotional side of having to deal with friends and family who's lives were devastated by joining Amway leave us with nothing but contempt and disgust for Amway. That is why we don't want to have a team we love have much of anything to do with Amway if at all possible, let alone having to incessantly read and hear "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Amway." The Detroit Red Wings, one of the classiest organizations in all of sports, presented by Amway, a company always bound to be one of the scummiest on any list of sleazy businesses. The whole idea is nothing short of utterly disgraceful.

I am genuinely shocked that someone can defend this company and not be a part of it. The only times I have ever encountered it in the past is when one has someone in their life deeply involved in Amway that they can't bring themselves to criticize or when it's a former-Amwayer trying to justify their wasted time and money. Otherwise, it seems next to impossible to defend Amway. I just do not understand at all how we can somehow justify Amway's sleazy business because the Devos family is charitable and from Michigan. I just don't care, because I know how they made their money! And I don't care that they're not a pyramid scheme. Pyramid scheme. Multi-level marketing. All the same when it comes to what Amway does to people's lives. They were "bodysnatchers" when they were based on a pyramid scheme and they're "bodysnatchers" now that they're based on multi-level marketing. I personally do not want to constantly be reminded of the many close friends that have had their lives devastated on so many levels by the disgusting cult of Amway while I watch the team I've loved since I can remember with the little bit of free time I have. Amway is literally one of the only words in this world that just instantly incites anger in me upon hearing the name. I'm not trying to single anyone out here or be critical, but I don't think anyone who's defending Amway has really seen how ugly it can get. I don't think they know people who have lost loads of money, countless friends and severed relationships with family. I really do not believe that they've dealt with people in situations like these that I have unfortunately dealt with numerous times. I don't think they know people who worked over 80 hours a week to make just enough money to buy their Amway/Quixstar products and books. All the while, bear in mind, these are at real jobs. They're not making any money at Amway. "Yet," they would say at best in acknowledging this simple fact. "I'm making an investment in my future because I want what's best for me and my family. You don't understand. You're ignorant and have no ambition." Heard variations on that too many times. Worse though, I don't think any Amway defender has dealt with people who no longer will speak to their parents, siblings and friends because their new Amway family says to cut anyone or anything out of their life that questions or speaks negatively about Amway and their business. I've seen this way too many times, and it's just plain sad for all of those affected. It's like losing someone to a cult. No, it is losing someone to a cult. And all the while usually the family in particular is just trying to help stop the blatantly-obvious financial bleeding that's taking place. They're just doing the simple math; tons of money going out, no money coming in, countless hours spent working. Simple stuff for most people; tougher for people trapped in a cult. Again, I'm planning on calling and writing to the Red Wings to express my distaste. I would recommend that the many here, seemingly the vast majority, who are upset over this news do the same.

YES! I can tolerate sponsorship; I wouldn't mind seeing a Detroit company like Belle Tire or GM at all. But Amway?!? Absolutely not. That to me is flat out disgusting. Again, I've seen too many people lose friends and family, not to mention all of their money, over Amway's bulls*** pyramid scheme. And for the less informed, if you ever had people bug you about Quixstar, that's Amway too.

There's three things that make my blood boil like none other: Amway, Wal-Mart and Farmville. Seeing one of these things so closely associated with the Wings is profoundly bothersome. I've lost too many friends to their bulls*** and brainwashing. I plan on making a call to the Red Wings business offices to express my disapproval. As a fan, this is the last thing I want to see.