gcom007

Topping, in defense of Jimmy Howard's career, as it now seems more relevant than ever. I'm all for a change if he can't do it in game 4, but to give up on the guy's CAREER at this point would be ludicrous. ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One more time... ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not knocking, just saying...

Concur. Very much so. I think Osgood's own "supporters" you could say are preparing for the worst as opposed to thinking with some perspective. I think they're thinking that we very well might see Osgood soon, which is I think far closer to a reality than some think. But in recognizing that rust is there, they're preparing their arguments of defense already. I'm not going to do that, because year after year, people think of all new ways to count the guy out, and somehow he always finds a way to come through. Sure, he may not (but I'm not going to go into defense mode now after all I've seen from him through the years), and Howard may get a shut-out in the next game, but I ******* don't give a s*** either way so long as we start winning ASAP. WIN!!!!!!!!!! I don't really care how. Just ******* win.

AH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My hysterical laughing and desk smacking matched this video in such a similar manner. There is so little difference between joy and sadness in some way it seems. This was amazing and I thank you (from a small, very shallow and menacing spot inside my soul) for sharing this.

I just want to note that as adamant as I am about going to Osgood if Howard continues as he has in Game 4, I'm by no means any less of a Howard supporter and believer. Unlike many around here, I get that guys can't be expected to do it all in their ******* ROOKIE (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) SEASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!!!!!!!!!!!!) I know that's totally insane to not expect rookies to perform like legends, but, umm, sorry, for, umm, thinking with some perspective...

And heaven forbid a simple, easy wrist shot that goes right into a goalies glove stay in a goalies glove less than 30 seconds in to a game as opposed to becoming a big rebound leading to another shot that leads to yet another rebound that leads to the goalie getting out of position, missing the guys coming in on the wraparound and allowing a goal, again, less than 30 seconds into a game... "The team plays better in front of Howard." I'm not throwing the kids career under the bus, but I've always been one to call a spade a spade. Howard's given this team anything but a rock to build on. The first was his best game, but not a good game, the second game was worse, this game was awful. So to go on with analogies, Howard's giving the team "sinking sand" you might say to build their playoff "house" on. I mean, it was fair for everyone to say that Howard's strong play made the team play better in the regular season... I just don't see how his weak post-season play wouldn't insinuate some sort of correlation with the teams weak post-season play. That is if we're not biased, utterly-subjective fans... Again, I'm not a Howard hater. I like the kid a lot, and I don't blame him for this mess. Babcock f***ed up in my mind, and I've been saying it (and pretty much calling this...) since November. I'm not out to pick on anyone, especially Howard, who again, I REALLY LIKE AND SUPPORT. But he's a damn rookie, and rookie's usually don't have what it takes to be great playoff goalies. It takes experience more often than not to be a great playoff goalie. The one thing rookies by definition don't have much of is EXPERIENCE. What's sad is, many will probably call me a Howard-hater now, but if he blows this series, when the masses of sheep start hating him over the course of this off-season into next season and declaring that we're screwed in goal, I'll likely be one of the few people defending him... ((Then again, some crazy people with small animal brains (I'm sorry, I love you all, tough love...) still try to defend Legace too, so maybe (and almost hopefully in this case as I really think Jimmy's a good kid with a lot of potential) I'll be wrong on that...)) (Legace was and is a s***ty-ass goaltender. Jimmy Howard has a lot of potential to not be a s***ty-ass goaltender.) Again, can't say it enough, I really like Jimmy Howard, and I feel bad for him. I hope people don't hold this series against him as time goes on but instead, keep it all in perspective and remember that he's a rookie. I want to see them go to Osgood if he s***s the bed again in game 4, but I want to remind everyone, despite Osgood winning us 2 Cups on his own and carrying a battered team to game 7 of the Finals last year, Osgood had to pay his dues on the bench too in his early years in the NHL. It's what made him the strong, big-game goalie he is today. I don't give a s*** about the last couple regular seasons. I can't explain it objectively, and I don't like thinking about it. All I know is that the guy knows how to turn it on in the playoffs, and he has for a long time. If Howard can't do it in game 4, let him learn firsthand from watching Osgood do what he does, so in time we might have another guy who may s*** the bed in the regular season, but kick ass in the playoffs when it really counts. I'm sorry, but the opposite doesn't mean s***, and Jimmy Howard and Chris Osgood will tell you that. If you can't win in the playoffs, regular season records and stats don't mean s*** (Manny Legace will likely be too ******* insane to admit it). I'll be rooting for Howard who will most-likely be starting game 4, but if he f***s up, I hope to be rooting for Osgood down the stretch. But I'll still be rooting for Howard next season.

Howard gave up a huge rebound that lead to multiple shots, and the initial shot went right into his glove. That's on Howard, no way around it, and it's a back-breaker of a goal to give up 30 seconds in. The second goal wasn't a horrible goal, but it was utterly terrible timing, and it wasn't far removed from soft. The 3rd goal was not his fault at all. The 4th goal was soft. Howard even admitted that 3 of the goals were blatantly his fault. All year long, people have been saying that Howard's strong play gives the team confidence. What do you think this weak play from Howard has done to the teams confidence? Again, how do you think the team feels when the goalie gives up a crap rebound leading to a goal 30 seconds in to game 3 after 2 shaky games that make up the entirety of Howard's playoff experience? If you can say that the team plays better in front of Howard because of his strong play in the regular season, how is it not reasonable to suggest that the team is looking less confident as Howard has looked less confident? And don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not a Howard hater, and the damn writers were writing this about the Wings and Howard after he struggled to hold a lead in game 2, let alone today's mess. At the end of the day, I see a rookie goalie who's learning the hard way what it takes to win in the playoffs. He's shown thus far that he hasn't learned what it takes to make it happen yet in the playoffs. That's okay. I wasn't one of the people feeling like he had to be a superstar hero in his rookie year, and I don't like the kid any less or think any less of him for this. I think he's still got plenty of potential to come out of this in the coming seasons and develop into a strong playoff goalie. But I'll be damned if I care so little about losing that I'd be willing to watch Howard blow this series just because he "got us here." I don't give a s*** who "got us here." I care about winning. I think Howard would agree with me. I think it's one of the stupidest ******* things in the world to say "we win or lose with Howard." I'm sorry, but I'm a Red Wings fan more than I'm a fan of any individual player, and if a guys not getting it done, you've got to do what it takes to see if the next guy can. Sometimes you've got to shake things up to get a teams attention, especially after a goalie throws things off. Everyone involved with the team knows that Howard's been huge for us this year, and everyone knows he's a rookie and it takes time for most guys to develop. Just as Osgood had to sit in the regular season, Howard may need to sit in the playoffs to let the veteran who knows how to handle the pressure of the big games do his thing. And Howard might learn a thing or two in the process. If Howard can't give this team a chance to win (he hasn't thus far), they need to see if Osgood can pull off another "miracle," or just continue to be the strong playoff goalie that he's always been. It's no knock on Howard, it's no grudge and there's most certainly no bias to it. I like Jimmy Howard a lot. But more than anything, I just want to win.

Wow San Jose wow. They are just as far from a playoff team as there has ever been...again and again...

No one was stopping the 3rd goal on skill alone; it would've taken a hell of a lot of luck to get that one. All the other goals were stoppable. The first and forth were brutal, and the timing on the 2nd was gut-wrenching as well. In the playoffs, oftentimes when you give up goals means far more than how, and he gave up 3 goals in this game at the absolute worst times possible. There's no way around that one. And in some ways, objectively we have to say that Howard giving up a goal right off the bat and generally not looking solid thus far in the playoffs is not going to help the confidence of the team. All year long the argument has been that Howard's strong play gave the team confidence. That has been anything but the case in the playoffs, so why shouldn't we hold him to the same standards used to defend him all year? I really like Jimmy Howard and I think he'll be fine down the stretch in his career, but this is his rookie year and he's simply not getting the job done thus far. If he gets another chance, he needs to turn it around fast or we have to see if Osgood can help in righting the ship.

Osgood wasn't playing as bad as many have come to believe. Howard came in and played great when Osgood got sick, and after that Osgood never once got a decent shot to get going again. This goes all the way back to November when there was plenty of time to sort things out. Granted, I do believe Osgood brought this on himself to some extent as well by mouthing off, in my mind, it never should have been made to be an issue. I said this WAY back when. There was no point in even creating the possibility for a goaltending issue. There's no drama on this team and these guys support each other. Keep them both warm and see how it goes down the stretch because after all, the playoffs are a different beast. I'm not saying I'm so smart. This is simple s***...really, really simple s***. This is how simple, and seriously, think back to November when this all started...contemplate: Don't utterly and completely ostracize a guy who went to the Cup Finals two years in a row, winning in '08 and carrying a battered team to game 7 in '09: good idea/bad idea? Again, I am absolutely not saying that Osgood made a wise move in running his mouth, but Babcock should not have let it ever get to the point where Osgood would be so upset to uncharacteristically run his mouth to the press. His lack of foresight on the matter was wholly and completely lacking. And also, don't forget, aside from simply not giving Osgood any sense of consistent starts, he did little to nothing to support Osgood at all in the press in continually saying that Howard gives the team the best chance to win when asked about Osgood. True or not at the time, it's just not going to help Osgood's state of mind when he's already stewing about not getting starts. And again, not saying Osgood was right to respond, but he was responding to fairly blatant criticisms of him that Babcock initially made in the press. And the bottom line is that Babcock didn't need to be saying what he was saying. I've been saying it for a long time, Babcock was creating a mess, and that mess is really starting to look like a mistake. And to respond to what will likely be the first rebuttal... Sorry, I don't buy for a second that Osgood wouldn't have been able to be a part of getting this team to the playoffs if given consistent starts throughout the season. He had some rough starts, but I have no doubt that he would've gotten things together especially down the stretch when things became more critical. Osgood's a big game goalie and he lives for the playoffs; there's no way he wouldn't give all he had to get there if it was on the line. I have complete faith in that.

I didn't mean to suggest that Phoenix is a bad team, but they are anything but an offensive powerhouse. They were 24th in the league for the regular season in goals scored at 211. Compared that to San Jose in 4th at 257, Chicago at 3rd with 262, Vancouver at 2nd at 268, and Washington at 1st with 313...if they were playing those teams and they were lighting Jimmy up to the tune of a GAA of close to 4 now, it'd be one thing, but this is Phoenix. They are not a powerful offensive team. That's what scares me about Jimmy Howard going forward at this point.

I never said I was convinced he could, I'm just not convinced he couldn't. I think it'd be worth the chance, and the more vie thought about it, I wouldn't be as shocked to see Osgood start game 4. Again, I doubt it, but Babcock's found a lot of success when making a goalie switch, as recently as a few months ago in Vancouver...it's absolutely not out of the realm of possibility in my mind.

Oh, I assumed wrongly that you were referring to Osgood playing great in the playoffs. I think Babcock switching to Luongo is a bolder move than switching to Osgood at this point. He pulled that off. I think Babcock still has something to learn about managing the rotation in the regular season, but i think he's learned his lesson about making a move when it counts the most. He's said for awhile that Howards earned the chance to start but they're in the best shape possible because Osgood knows what it takes to come in and win when it counts if we need him. I don't think we'll see Osgood starting in game 4, but I'd say it's far more likely to happen now, this year, than the idea of Hasek being pulled at all in 2008. Pulling Hasek (a legend) for Osgood in 2008 >>> pulling Howard (a rookie) for Osgood in 2010 (who went on to win the Cup for Babcock in 2008) Babcocj's had far more success when making a goalie move when it's come up than not. Don't think he isn't thinking about that at this very moment.

I heard that one last year too... (understatement of the year)

It's a team game to me. That's what bugs me about these goalie debates is that despite the uniqueness of the position requiring so much goalie-centric thought, it's still a team game at the end of the day. That's why I didn't like seeing Osgood benched to collect dust and rust and it's why I think it's stupid to say that Howard needs to be the guy to lose. It makes no sense to me. If Howard's not getting it done, give Osgood a chance. Maybe he'll be too rusty to help or maybe he'll pull off his third straight brilliant playoff run. I don't want to lose, period. I don't care who's in net so long as we win, but if we're losing and Howard's not playing any better and we've got the best ******* playoff goalie of the last two years who's a proven Cup winner sitting on the bench, I say you've got to give him a chance. Chris Osgood is far from a no-name backup goalie. He's going to be a 400 game winner before he's done. If Howard can't do it, you've got to give Osgood a chance.

Vs's intemission crew seems to think it may be time for Osgood for what (little) it's worth...

You really should go back and review the first half of the season. In October, Osgood was getting no help but still many were saying he was the only reason we weren't getting blown out in many games. It wasn't so much that Osgood was bad so much as Howard got hot as hell for awhile and Babcock rode him. Then Osgood got pissed and ran his mouth (while his point, now more than ever, was probably valid, it was still a dumb move) and Babcock benches him even longer. Again, before Howard got going after the Toronto game in which Osgood was sick (leading to his being out a week and Howard getting a chance) and the team was horrible, Osgood had a shutout and 3 outstanding games (.950+ sv.% I believe). Osgood getting benched had to do with Howard playing like a madman and then Osgood running his mouth. He absolutely was not playing nearly as bad as he did in the 2008/09 regular season leading up to it. I was one of the one's saying we needed to give Osgood more of a chance, and i still stand by that, but I'm also not ready to count Osgood out if we need him. To me, it's really this simple: if Osgood's "bad" in the regular season was enough to bench him, Howard's "bad" thus far in the playoffs is just about enough to bench him. I say start Howard in game 4 like most, and I'll certainly be cheering for him, but if he lets in 3 goals that aren't absolutely rock solid goals, in my mind, it's time to go to Osgood. The regular season is a different beast than the playoffs, and thus far, Howard has done nothing to prove that he's ready for it. Again, I'm not saying he's done, and I don't think he's pulling a Manny Legace. I think he's a rookie learning a s***ty lesson. Maybe he'll get it together in game 4, but if not, it's time for him to start learning by watching again.

People are forgetting that Osgood didn't play remotely as bad in the regular season this year as he did last year, and that's even considering the fact that he never had a chance to get going in the second half. I don't think Osgood's lost as much as some think, and I'm sorry, but there's just no way i can utterly write him off in the post-season at this point. I'm not saying that there aren't concerns due to rust, but there's also some hopes to that as of now, have a lot more experience to back them up than my hopes for Howard.

You know that I'm not any sort of a Howard hater. But you know, this is Phoenix and he's looked rough. Can you imagine if we were playing Chicago? Like I said, Osgood very well may be too rusty to pull it off again, but if Howard can't get it together in game 4, you might as well give Osgood a chance. It's not as if he's been injured. He's been practicing. He's not wholly cold. I think in the context of his long career, but especially the last couple years, that Osgood has earned a chance if Howard continues to struggle. And just as I said earlier, you still learn from the bench. Osgood learned plenty watching Vernon win that first Cup. Sure, he played for only two rings, but that doesn't minimize being a part of winning that 3rd ring. That's why I have no problem with Howard watching. He's still going to learn, and to me, you can "earn your ring" as well as the next guy by watching and learning from the bench.

How about a goal 20 seconds into the game? Then how about another with 30 seconds left in the 2nd to surrender a 2-1 lead? Then how about another 1:30 after we regained momentum and cut their lead to 1 with 10 minutes left in the 3rd? I'm not saying they were all the softest goals the world has seen, but they were all brutal goals to surrender, if at times not utterly soft and backbreaking as well. I like Howard and i think he's got a future here, but I want to see them go to Osgood if Howard doesn't come out ready and on fire Tuesday. I'd go so far as to say that if he let's in 3 goals, it's time to go to Osgood. Osgood very well may be too rusty, but I'm not about to count him out either. And if anything, Howard needs to learn now what it takes. He needs to know the stakes. Getting pulled could end up being a good thing for him as he can still learn from it. And it's a simple lesson: the only way to win in the playoffs is to give your best effort every game. We have yet to see anything close to Howard's best in this post-season. And I think he has only one more chance to prove otherwise...

There's a difference between trading him ASAP and sitting our rookie goalie on the bench to watch in exchange for the best playoff goalie of the last two years with 3 Cups to his name.

Howard will start game 4. If Howard doesn't improve, Osgood will finish that game and the series most likely. I get that the teams been rough as a whole, but Howard gave up some total backbreaker goals. The first in the first 20 seconds is brutal for a teams momentum, then the end of the 2nd and the worst, that 4th goal...he's gotta be making more of these saves. He absolutely hasn't been theJimmy Howard of the regular season. He had to do it all himself plenty of times, and now is is the playoffs. You need your goalie to be great in the playoffs. Any way you shake it, Howard hasn't been great at all in the playoffs.

We were outplayed across the board. Phoenix earned this one. We didn't. Lousy effort. Terrible passing, not enough intensity in the offensive zone, backbreaking goals against, sloppy, sloppy changes...this was hard as hell to watch without bursting out into tirades of profanity.

I'm sorry, but this goaltending is unacceptable. I don't need any excuses. The team needs to turn it up, yes, but Howard's a part of that team and his GAA and save% after is game are going to be as horrid of stats as Bryzgalov's rebound stats. This team is brutal. Absolutely brutal to watch right now.

It's about ******* time. Time to not gi e uo another goal

if Franzen doesn't show up for game 4, I'm going to be livid. That's not to say that I'm any less infuriated right now...TERRIBLE!!!!!!