gcom007

Well s***. Tie game. Ovechkin is just sick. I had a feeling early on that the Caps would pull this one out. They've got all the momentum in the world right now. We know too well how games like this end up going...

Man, Penguins are about to pull a Red Wings special...

Damn, talk about blowing a great opportunity...

Imagine if our defensemen covered players half as well as Crosby just got "covered..." I dream...

While there are certainly people just riding a bandwagon here, the gripe about the defense tanking with McCrimmon is not a new gripe, nor is it wholly unfounded. It's unbelievable how bad this team got at defense last season when really the only heavy changes were bringing in McCrimmon and Hossa, and Hossa's a defensively responsible forward. The year before, the team was one of the top defensive teams and seemingly overnight that falls apart, along with the PK?!? And after this season, I don't know how you can't look at McCrimmon here. While we had a period of time in which we were playing great D (after half the team got injured and we had to play good D to stay alive) earlier in the season when healthy and now that we're healthy again, the defense looks even worse than it did last year, and that's saying a hell of a lot because it was downright s***ty last year more often than not. There's a lot more I could say, but I feel like the writing is on the wall on this one. And while I don't think anything will be done real soon, I wouldn't be surprised if a change was quietly made in the off-season. Any way you look at it, these guys aren't getting the job done under his leadership. If he can't get them to tighten up and play smarter, then it's probably a good idea to make a change.

I don't doubt that someone might say that. I just don't put much stock in the opinion. Lots of people have lots of definitions about leadership and what the C means. Different people have different personalities as well that will simply interpret things a certain way. And to them, they may be right, and that's fine. No one is going to make everyone happy. I've gotta say though, since you kinda narrowed it down to the possibility of five guys, I can imagine some interesting stuff flying around. I've had multiple experiences with 3 of those 5 guys while they were in drunken states over the years. It definitely can get interesting...

Bravo. Well said.

Based on what I've heard and read, I don't entirely doubt many of the things Outsider is saying. However, I don't know if that makes all the decisions wrong either. While Babcock has come in and burned some bridges in some way with a different style of game and a different way of treating players, another thing that's changed dramatically is the structure of the game in general. I understand all the sentimental stuff from an emotional standpoint and I think loyalty is a great thing and something that's defined this team for a long time. But in the cap era, you've got to balance loyalty with logic. Have I heard that Yzerman would have played another year? Yes, and it's from people who absolutely would know. But I also think Yzerman saw the writing on the wall as much as certain parties within the organization that thought it might be best for him to move on. He understood the situation and while it's hard for any warrior to give up the game, I think he knew that it would probably be best to move on. He understands as well if not better than most that the game is changing and new mentalities that are perhaps less "personal" and "fuzzy" are necessary to remain competitive. And it goes without saying that Shanahan is a loyalist to the old guard, and it's well known that he didn't get along with Babcock, so it should be no surprise that he left. Remember, he LEFT. He was offered a contract from the Wings for the same amount of money as he was offered in New York and didn't accept it. And make no mistake, while he didn't like Babcock and wasn't lying about being part of the old guard, he absolutely was operating in his own self-interest in heading to New York. He too saw the writing on the wall as well as the outline of his post-playing career in the distance, and he followed it to New York. And Chelios? I mean, I have no doubt that he and Babcock had issues, and I doubt Roenick was lying. But again, so many of these players have issues with coaches, especially coaches like Babcock. I take the Chelios issue with a grain of salt as the reality is that he was an old guy who was more of a coach than a player. Holland said we didn't have room for him as a player. I don't care who's world you're in, so long as the cap is there, he's dead right. He said go try to find a job playing and if you don't, give me a call at the end of the summer, and I have no doubt that he would've been plugged into a coaching/development role real quick. But Chelios still wanted to play. Fine, but don't put it on Babcock or Holland. He made the choice to leave the organization because he still wanted to play and we logically didn't have room for him. So I think things are changing within the organization based on what it once was, but I see that change as going hand in hand mostly with the evolution of the league in general. I think Babcock has his own way of doing things as well like any coach, and in many ways he's a great pick for a cap era team as he can get a lot out of some of these kids that guys like Bowman used to trade away. In the cap era, it's a lot tougher to not rely on a lot of kids getting pad $500k so having Babcock is a strength. With that comes a leadership model that's a little different as well, but I don't think throwing Babcock under the bus entirely is necessary just because things are different. I'll agree that I think he's done a terrible job of dealing with Osgood and the goalies in general through the years, but just like Holland has weaknesses, so does Babcock. Even Scotty Bowman wasn't perfect. Hopefully he'll continue to improve there, just as I hope Holland becomes more aggressive and hard nosed in the wake of a changing game. And as far as the leadership in general, as much as I may question Lidstrom and Zetterberg in some ways, it's not like I see anyone else in the room who should have that spot right now, and it's not as if they're terrible. We're not as bad of a team as it seems at time and again, nothing's perfect. But I think they're facing a big test here. Now is the time to call this situation what it is and get honest with everybody about it and how they're going to fix it. Continuing to rely on canned answers only furthers the idea that they're not addressing the real issues. If they really wanted to tackle this, they'd make a bold move. Part of that is by making yourself accountable to the public. Nick Lidstrom needs to call an end to the bulls*** while all the cameras and reporters are there. He needs to tell us that the bulls*** is over and they are going to score more, check harder, play tighter, whatever it takes to WIN. No more bad breaks. No more goal posts. No more injuries. "We will win." It's as simple as that, and I really don't know if anyone's really said it. We all get that there are injuries, and I've given this team all the grace in the world in that sense, but it's getting real old. "We will win." No more excuses. No more bulls***. It's time to make a real statement on and off the ice. Extra on Yzerman: Yzerman was great, and anyone who thinks he wasn't a tremendous motivator and leader of this team is out of their minds. Sometimes not saying much can say a lot when you're out there playing the way he did night after night. And as was said, when you're known to be quiet, your words when used have tremendously more value. Leaders are rarely jaw-flappers, though that's often a misconception among people who aren't leaders. They're not even always the smartest or "best" people at any given job. Make no mistake, talent and knowledge certainly help, but they're hardly the end all of the matter. Leaders are people have the ability to inspire others to push themselves to be the best they can be. It's not necessarily being the guy who's always talking so much as knowing when to speak up, what to say and how to say it. But mostly, leaders LEAD by example and no one on the Red Wings in the last 20 years has lead better by sheer example than Steve Yzerman. It's most important because if you aren't setting the standard in your work ethic, in doing the most with the cards you were dealt, your words will mean nothing. That's why Draper's a great leader. He's obviously not the most skilled guy, but the guy pushes himself day in and day out. He's got more heart than most guys and when you've got a guy like Draper pushing, before he even has to say a word, he's going to make you look bad real quick if you don't follow suit in working your ass off. Future Leadership Watch: I really like Eaves as a potential long-term leader on this team. I think he's a real smart kid who's also a real hard worker, a smart hockey player, involved wherever he can be involved, etc. I see a lot of leadership potential in him and I think as he grows, especially if he sticks with us, he very well could develop into a Captain candidate or at least an Alternate spot.

I'll address the points, and bear in mind, anything that I suggest in regards to the off-season is reflected just as I reflected it in the off-season and leading up to it. I'm not digging into hindsight here and as I've said, I don't think injuries have been our problem. Injuries have done more to suggest that our problem lies in our healthy team in my opinion. Anyways... 1. But Mule's goals were already a given in that scenario. As good or even better still doesn't account for the 80 goal hole left by 3 guys. 2. I agree in some ways about both Z and Dats, but at the same time, how much of that has to do with a lack of scoring talent around them I wonder? While Z has been a bit of an odder story, with Dats you've got a guy who I really think is playing great despite what some numbers suggest. As great as both of these guys are, they can't do it all themselves. If Datsyuk makes a brilliant play to set up a guy who lacks an offensive touch, what good is it? Nobody in this league does it well alone because even when it's not just play to play, having a well-rounded, balanced team helps maintain momentum as well which can make these guys better. 3. I think by years end they won't be so far removed from where they've been. Lidstrom was a 2nd half guy last year. As I've said for awhile, the hate was premature and we've clearly seen that in the last month. 4. Most know I don't think much of Flip's offensive abilities in general, but to be totally blunt, I think he's an absolutely s***ty goal scorer. I don't think he has ever shown that he has the tools to be a consistent goal-scorer either. He doesn't have a good shot, he's weak far too often in the offensive zone, easily getting knocked over and generally that just translates into him not finishing plays. He's a great defensive player when he wants to be (he cherry-picks too much at times for someone who can't score goals or make Datsyuk-esque plays) but that's not our weakness. At $3 million, he would've been the first guy sent packing to keep scoring as numerous people suggested around here and in the media. 5. I think it was a stretch to think anything of Leino. It would've been a stretch to say he'd be a bust, sure, but I think it's a stretch to think any rookie will give you consistent, strong play as well. 6. Bert's done that and perhaps more even and the season's not over. This guy could come up big in the post-season if we find a way to get things going at the right time. He'll be hungry as hell. Williams, eh, yeah, I don't know. As I've said, I probably would've been fine passing on him but I don't dislike it entirely at all. You're probably right in thinking that he'd be worth around 15 goals if not for injuries. 7. Helm has contributed more than last year but his role isn't as a goal scorer really anyways. Abs wasn't even supposed to be on the team. 8. Ericcson's the same deal as Leino. He's a rookie. It's dangerous to think too much or too little of rookies at any point in their rookie year. Let the year interpret itself and address what needs to be addressed over the summer and then start looking at what kind of a role the guy can really play. And I don't think anyone expected Lebda and Meech to do anything but suck anyways... 9. Kronwall is a force when he's in the lineup. I think he was the hardest injury for us to battle through. This injured team full of guys playing different roles, young kids and recent random signings ended up looking more like a team than our healthy lineup and Kronwall was a big part of fostering a lot of offense. Losing him hurt us tremendously. We were never shut out before he went down. Stuart's more the defensive end of that, and for the most part he's been great. Lately, I don't know what to say........I think he'll get it together, but lately it's been rough. So when I look at this list, I say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are either poor assumptions or irrelevant to the problem. Remember, Bert and Williams were desperation signings done well after we lost all those guys. It's not as if they were part of the grand plan, so you can't really figure them in. Bottom line to me is that we let 3 guys go who specialize in scoring. They accounted for 80 goals. I think the simplest solution would have been to get Hossa signed at around a $5 million cap hit like the Chicago deal (add 40 goals with no defensive liability and tons of hustle), try to work with Hudler, but you stick to your guns and keep your nose to the ground for good deals and bring in those Bertuzzi and Eaves deals as they're good value deals to complement a big, proven star deal. Sure, you are guaranteed to have to dump guys like Flip (he'd be the biggest loss that we wouldn't have likely lost anyways), but he's overpaid on this team considering our two-way depth at center. Hossa at $5 million >>>>>> Flip at $3 million Either way it goes, we lose some guys, but in this case, we had no choice in what guys we lost and kept. We just let guys leave which left us picking from the scraps of what was left to put a team together. Bert and Eaves were great signings, but when you stop and think that Flip and Williams contracts would account for most of Hossa's new deal, it makes a lot of sense. It could've been done, but Holland didn't have the foresight, gall, spine, whatever, to make it happen, and it was among his biggest mistakes as a GM. It's real tough for me to overlook that because it really is bigger than just Hossa. What it ultimately reflects is that the guy didn't aggressively work to have a well-rounded team which is critically important, and this occurred mostly because the Wings are too soft in the cap era. Loyalty is great, but you've still got to put the best team on the ice every year. If that means trading or letting home grown talent go, so be it. And it's not going to magically get better next year if we don't make some serious, even if seemingly lateral moves between now and the start of next season.

Without knowing any specifics of who he's actually talked to and what they talked about, I can absolutely say that this sort of thing is not so uncommon at all. Even the players will talk a whole lot more than some think when there's not a TV camera shoved in their face. I won't get into things I've heard specifically in such situations, but as said, I can vouch for the claim that you can absolutely hear a different side of the story (and you usually do) when you meet guys and talk to them like people (as they are just people) as opposed to smothering them and begging for autographs. And I'll definitely vouch for the fact that I've "heard" plenty about players not happy with Babcock, but that's pretty much common knowledge at this point. And the reality is, plenty of players grumbled about Bowman as well, but Bowman always got more respect. However, I don't know if that's due to the players thinking that much worse of a hard coach like Babcock or begrudgingly respecting a guy like Bowman who is arguably the greatest coach in hockey history.

Hmmm, I'm not going to lie, I kinda want to take back what I said earlier. You actually raised some good points that I forgot about. I'm a big proponent of understanding the context of a situation when discussing it, but I was focused on this season. In looking at the whole of Babcock's tenure, you raise good points. Babcock definitely seems to prefer younger guys that he can "mold" more than older guys that are a bit more set in their ways. There's been more than enough chatter in the press to know that a lot of the older guys were at the very least less than thrilled at Babcock's lack of respect for the veteran guys on the team. And if they said what they did in the press, you've got to imagine that off the record they were nothing short of pissed. And I'll definitely admit, I've never been real sold on Lidstrom as a Captain, though I'm far less sold on Zetterberg. Both of them seem a bit too passive or almost diplomatic in their approach to leading. Think back to Yzerman. What do you think he would've said heading into Game 7 last year? "We will win game 7." It would be a front page declaration. While we don't see these guys in the room, how they respond to the media is absolutely a reflection of leadership style. Where as Lidstrom spews lines that mean nothing and carry absolutely no weight, Yzerman in the face of adversity would come out and make huge declaration statements to the media, for all the world to see, that this Red Wings team would not only play harder and keep working, but THEY WOULD WIN. Lidstrom is not that guy. Zetterberg is not that guy. They're both insanely good hockey players, but that doesn't make them insanely good leaders. Yzerman may not seem it in some respects, but he absolutely was a warrior. The fiercest of warriors at that. To play through what he played through is all you need to know. Steve Yzerman was a leader because he refused to lose. That doesn't mean he always came out on top, but he never took it lightly. He never quit. Draper is the only guy left who still has that mentality, and funny enough, he's one of the only guys who's spoken up this year in the media and in the locker room and called the situation out for what it was. And it worked for a bit, but unfortunately, Draper's not Steve Yzerman. I also can't help but think Babcock has a lot to do with the "well I thought we played real well and we just need to keep battling and play harder." Basically, the utterly empty, canned statements to the press that say nothing. If you've got leadership in the locker room and confidence in the room, you're not going to have a problem meeting the press and being more honest in stepping up and making bold declarations. I don't think it's there, and in really looking back on the last four years, it very well might have a lot more to do with Babcock than I thought. I'm not saying he sucks or we should fire him though for the record. I'm just beginning to really think about this one, but I've got to admit, it's incredibly intriguing...

Listen, I think Osgood should start down the stretch and into the playoffs too, but this is bigger than Chris Osgood or Jimmy Howard. It's not Howard's fault we're losing these games no more than Osgood's. Howard's done everything he can possibly do and it hasn't helped this team. Other than Osgood, who has he really screwed around with this year?

I suppose it doesn't help people with "real problems" to have something of lesser-consequence like sports or entertainment to get excited about and be passionate about when "real life" is s***ty. People need stuff like this to get excited about to get through "real problems." Sure, the downside is that it can spark anger as well, but that's just part of life. There's nothing any less real about this than other horrible things in many ways, and I don't say that to minimize epic tragedies at all. All I'm saying is you can't look at it all in such a black and white manner. If these seemingly "little things" were of no importance at all, it would minimize the tragedy of a massive amount of people. If there was nothing worth being excited about, what would be the point of living? And if there's nothing worth being upset about, how great can it be? These little things have far more to do with "life" actually happening than people dying in tragedies. The bottom line is that it makes no sense to compare the two things. They exist on totally different planes in many ways. I get the sentiment on some level, but I would suggest you consider reevaluating the thought for yourself. And I'm not taking the time to write a proper, formal essay here, but I hope you can see the point I'm getting at. I'm really not trying to minimize a tragedy like Haiti that literally brought tears to my eyes (and I'm not one to cry at all) that I have donated money too. That is the last thing I am trying to do. I'm just trying to present a defense of looking at life in a more holistic context.

I think Osgood needs to play to get ready for the playoffs, but this team has way bigger problems than goaltending. If they can't find confidence from Jimmy Howard when he's generally played so well, you know for certain it's not the goaltender that's going to get them going.

While I've been hyper-critical of Holland in this thread, that doesn't mean I think he should be run out of town either. You can be critical of people and identify mistakes without thinking that they're total hacks that should be fired. I think Holland screwed up big-time in the off-season. I would've traded some roster players and let certain guys walk to keep some of our proven scoring depth. I think that was a HUGE gamble, and I don't think it was hard to spot. It was convenient to memorize, but the writing was on the wall that this team was in scoring trouble when all four guys walked and the reality is, it could've been prevented. We have plenty of two-way depth on offense and a major lack of scoring. That's a simple thing to see. You trade some of that depth away for cap space and sign your goal scorers. It should have been simple but he hesitated. He comes out after and says that he never foresaw every guy walking, and if that's really true, than shame on him for being stupid. I think he probably knew better than he let on, but he still didn't have the gall to make the moves necessary to keep our goal count up. That said, I think he did a good job cleaning up the mess as best he could in signing Bert and Eaves. I would've passed on Williams and saved the cap space, but I wasn't wholly bothered by the move either. He is a master at signing stars and "no-names" to great deals, but I've been less than thrilled to say the least at his deals with mid-level guys. I agree with many who suggest that the European scouting that's been in place for awhile ought to get more praise for finding many of the guys that we've built the empire around, though that's also no fault of Hollands either. I think the biggest thing is that Holland needs to learn from this season that he's got to make sacrifices to ice a solid, well-rounded team. You can't keep every guy you developed. You can't keep every guy you "hope" becomes a better player. Again, I'm not saying we should run him out of town, but his poor decisions or lack of foresight got us into this mess, and it's silly not to acknowledge it as a fundamental mistake that's lead to many of our problems when it blatantly is what it is.

True on some level. But when you look at the strengths of guys and what they really do based not on what we "hope they can do" but what they've "actually done," I see a team that's brutally lacking in balance. I see a lot of individual guys that don't really fit that well together. Sure, having time to gel is important, but I think we've seen enough examples of healthier lines failing to get even a hint of chemistry going to worry. Remember, they had a training camp and a month where they were mostly injury free and we've been getting guys back for awhile now.

He also caused it by being stupid enough to not foresee all his FA's walking. He played it conservative and watched everyone walk. I know he hates dealing guys away, but this team is now incredibly unbalanced and it's because Holland didn't have the spine to make moves to keep some of the guys who PUT THE ******* PUCK IN THE NET...damn, sorry, that's anger at the team. Don't take it personally... You look at this team after the Finals and you get honest about what some of these guys can do instead of expecting guys like Cleary, Flip and Leino to just magically make up for guys in case everyone jumps ship. It was a stupid thing to do. You balance your team out with proven guys that play a certain role or you have s***ty-ass seasons like this. Again, this team looks it's worst when healthy, and that's Hollands team. He gets absolutely no pass in my book. If anything, I blame him almost entirely for how f***ed this season is.

Well, to be honest, I think there are a lot more problems with this team when they're healthy then when they were "unhealthy." The chemistry has been utterly and completely absent whenever this team has been fairly healthy.

Babcock: it's not like I really expect him to flip out and be honest, but for the love... This isn't just a random "off game" anymore. This is bigger than Franzen. Franzen will help, but this team has much bigger issues. lasdkf;klsdfja

Not going to lie, this is the first game in which the thought legitimately crossed my mind, and I've been very, very, very positive throughout this rough season. But when your healthy team is playing this s***ty, you've either gotta make some moves to try and balance out the chemistry issues or you're probably f***ed. I still think we'll find a way into the playoffs, but there's no way in hell we'll go far playing even a bit better than we have lately.

Fair assessment. 2nd goal was a dumb play on his part, blatantly, but he's a rookie and playing the puck is not something that comes right away. That's very much an area where experience is everything. Rebounds still are an issue to, but eh, again, in my mind, he's a rookie. He's done far more than I expected and I'm fine with accepting mistakes and weaknesses right now from him. Just don't even get me started on the defense. Just totally ******* pathetic lately...

This is one of the more embarrassing losses of the season without a doubt. This team is lost. Give me back the team that had all the injuries. I liked that team a hell of a lot better than this squad of skaters that can't put a complete game together to save their lives.

He's a rookie, and a damn good one at that. Don't forget so soon.

That's what happens when you have an unbalanced team with no chemistry.