Dabura

He still has value as a third-pairing guy or reserve. And mentor.

At this point, I think you're just being obstinate. No one is saying Sammy alone is going to cut it. That's why Kenny needs to "be creative." Fortunately, he has options, and he would have time to sort things out. And no, I wouldn't have a problem with Hank taking a discount. 7-7.5 is nothing to cry about, especially when considering 1) Nick is making something like 7.45, 2) Hank is being groomed as this team's new Yzerman, 3) 8 isn't much more than 7-7.5, and 4) Hossa would almost guarantee at least one more Cup.

I think by "enforcer," Kenny probably means McCarty.

In my mind, the only thing that would stop Holland from even calling Hossa's agent is a returning Stuart. If Stuart comes back, then yes, Hossa would be pretty much impossible to swing. If he looks to be gone, however, Holland will probably place a call. That's all I'm saying, and that's all I've ever really been saying in this thread. In all likelihood, nothing will come of it. If, on the other hand, Hossa says he's flexible, then Kenny can try to get creative. That could involve, for starters, talking Flip and Mule down to something like 2.5 and 2.8, respectively (not likely, but not out of the question). Actually, Hank could likely be talked down as well, as the figure a lot of people seem to think he'll get (7.5) would be, if memory serves, more than what Nick is earning. Isn't Nick at 7.45-ish? Maybe Hank could settle for 7.3, maybe even 7 flat. (It's worth remembering that Kenny would have a year to work this out.) In terms of actual additions and subtractions, how about dropping Sammy and "replacing" him with a league-minimum scrub like Abdelkader. Kenny might also decide to fill that #4 spot on the blue line with someone already in the system -- perhaps Ericsson, who would cost $1 million at most, giving the Wings a $4-million-dollar second pairing (not bad at all). Point being, there's wiggle room. But I'm kind of growing tired of debating what Kenny probably will or probably won't do. Time will tell.

A lot of people are saying things like, "Well, if it's between Hossa and Flip + Franzen, then...." NN made a very good point when he said Hossa and our stars in need of retention don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. That is to say, bringing in Hossa doesn't necessarily mean losing Franzen or Flip. It all hinges on what the different parties want and how creative Kenny wants to be (more the latter, I think, because Kenny can influence the demands of our own players). My point, I guess, is that not everything is set in stone. Take Stuart, for example: just because Kenny would like to have him back doesn't necessarily mean he wants anything to do with the Wings anymore. And Kenny has made it pretty clear that there's a ceiling on his offers to Stuart, so it's not like he'll be saying to himself, "s***, if only I weren't interested in Hossa! Then I could really offer Brad some quality money!" Saying it's Hossa or Franzen + Stuart doesn't really take these things into account. It also assumes Franzen is going to continue to be a force, commanding a lot of money when it comes time to extend him. For all we know, Mule could go cold this season. Obviously it makes no sense signing Hossa on the basis of a bunch of "if..."s. But, like I said, there's room for creativity. And for all we know, Hossa is willing to go as low at 7-7.5 if it means playing for the Wings.

QFT.

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing centers on Therrien.

egroen, I'll reiterate yet again that I believe Hossa coming here is a pipe dream. So does everyone else who's arguing against you here. What you're saying -- that it's much more likely Holland will save up money for a potential deadline deal or a less costly FA pickup -- is not news to anyone here. In fact, just the other day I was asserting in some other thread that if Stuart does decide to walk, Holland will most likely set aside some cash for a potential replacement, as opposed to splurging on a high-priced FA forward like Sundin or Hossa. It's just common sense. Having said that, it's equally sensible to argue that Kenny is going to express an interest in Hossa. Again, this isn't me trying to rationalize an irrational argument. Rather, it's simply me explaining what any reasonable GM in Kenny's position would do. Contrary to what you seem to believe, egroen, Hossa coming here does not necessarily have to destroy the team in terms of its financial situation or its chemistry. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not a certainty -- certainly not to the point where Kenny shouldn't even make a courtesy call. In all likelihood, Kenny -- the same Kenny who was chasing Elias not too long ago, as NN pointced out -- will see how well he can sell the Wings to Hossa (i.e., see whether or not Hossa has an interest in playing here if it means earning less than what he'd earn with other clubs like the Pens). For all we know, Hossa is "testing the waters" only to see if he can sign with the Wings. That's not a terribly unrealistic thought. As I said before, if Hossa says, "No," then fine -- no skin off Kenny's back. But it sure would be nice if he expressed an interest. I don't think everyone here fully realizes how great a player Hossa is. Again: this is a guy who netted a hat trick against the Wings on a piss-poor Thrashers team this past regular season and then went on to almost singlehandedly take the Wings to seven games in the Stanley Cup Finals. He's big, he's fast as hell, he scores, he backchecks, he rarely misses defensive assignments -- he's a monster. If given the supporting cast the Wings could give him, I believe he could challenge Datsyuk for the #2 spot on the forwards depth chart. By now, I've noticed a common argument against adding that kind of package: "We don't need that." As I and others have touched on already, that's a flimsy position. True enough, one could argue that we have more important "needs." But if you're going to tell me Brian Rolston would fully address these supposed "needs," and that one of the big arguments in favor of this point is the idea that we lost against the Ducks a couple seasons ago because of our defense, or lack thereof...well, I'm going to take issue with that. As I've already said (noticing a trend?), if the Wings have holes, they're top-tier holes; we have a ton of depth on forward and on D. Secondary scorers? Holmstrom, Flip, Cleary, Sammy, Hudler, maybe Franzen -- we have more than enough secondary scorers. Energy forwards? Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, Kopecky, Hudler, Abdelkader in a season or two, maybe Leino -- hell, Sammy played the best he's ever played as a Wing when he was playing on that checking line with Draper and Drake. On (a hypothetically Stuart-less) D? After Kronwall, it's practically a free-for-all between Lebda, Lilja, Chelios, Meech, Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl. As I've also said (echo?), the Wings lost against the Ducks in that series because the Wings, pathetically, couldn't convert on something like six or seven straight 5-on-3s. They had the series handed to them on a silver platter time after time after time, but, bottom line: when everything was on the line, they couldn't put the puck in the net. While it's true that the Wings' offense depends heavily on the back end, the fact of the matter is the Wings' goal-scorers collectively dropped the ball. All of those lethal scorers, those clutch performers -- they couldn't bring home the bacon. Team defense wasn't really an issue then, and it certainly isn't one now. Looking at those names I listed, do you see a "need" for another guy who "won't score a ton of goals, but will ___"? I don't. Rolston's a great guy, a great player -- but I fail to see how he (who could cost as much as $5 million, which is about one Brad Stuart away from Hossa-like money) is a guy the Wings should totally go after, while Hossa is an absurdly unrealistic, irrational target. If we're trying to be stingy and ruthlessly logical in our personnel decisions, wouldn't it make sense to not sign someone like Rolston? Look at the names I listed -- do we need Brian Rolston any more than we need someone to further spread out our top-flight offensive attack? One might argue, "Brian would probably be willing to bring his price down in order to play here," to which I say, "Fair enough. The same could be true of Marian."

Just to nip any criticism in the bud -- I'm merely saying what's most likely, not what I'd necessarily do if given the choice. It may seem crazy pairing Meech with Kronner, but so's putting Sammy on the point on the PP.

Meech gets the nod over Ericsson because of his experience. I like Ericsson's potential in the long run, but Meech is safer in the here and now. Of course, ideally, that #4 spot goes to Stuart or a solid FA/trade acquisition.

Dude, give it a rest.

I'd love to see what a Kronwall-Ericsson pairing could do. In all likelihood, though, we're looking at a Kronwall-Meech tandem. And yeah, no way does Nick get bumped down.

He'd let the chocolate ooze its way to the ants. Such is his genius.

Only if he comes for cheap.

What do you want Kenny to do, jump out of a birthday cake dressed as a French maid at Jimmy's next b-day party? Bottom line: Howard's been held back because we've been fortunate enough to reap the benefits (and, for a stretch, the consequences) of a veteran goalie-go-round. Again, if management had a serious problem with him, he would've been shipped off a long time ago. Having a weak link at the #3 spot on the goalie depth chart is a big no-no. Having a weak link at the #3 spot for several years in a row is an even bigger no-no. With Dom's retirement, there's now an opening. Howard will be eased in, but he's not going to be patted on the back at every turn. Motown eats goalies alive, and Howard will need to learn that, fair or not, he'll need to go above and beyond people's expectations if he's going to be this team's #1 guy for years to come.

I fail to see anything particularly damning about these statements. If management truly has no confidence in him as a backup or a starter, he wouldn't be with the organization right now. After all, what's the point of keeping a faulty fallback around for a number of seasons? Don't you think they would have shipped him off by now? No GM wants a goalie pipeline that nosedives right after the backup position, so the fact that Howard's held down that spot for a few seasons says to me that the brass has a lot of confidence in him. After all, Holland does say, "We like Jimmy Howard," in that first excerpt....

We lost because because we failed to convert on a dozen straight 5-on-3s. True, the absence of Schneider and Kronwall didn't help, but we hung right in there defensively. Ultimately, it was our inability to score when we absolutely needed to score that sank us. And I agree with Nick -- a top-tier defensive forward like Hossa would give us more leeway with that #4 spot.

I'm not sure why we're even having this argument. My arguments are simple, straightforward and innocuous. As I said, if you're Ken Holland, and you learn there's a chance you could sign Hossa without absolutely breaking your back, you're going to make at least one courtesy phone call. The simple fact that Hossa rejected the Pens' offer implies that he's open to ideas and offers -- such as, conceivably, playing for less if it means playing for a team that's even more competitive than the Pens. Kenny has nothing to lose by putting in a call and an offer; if Hossa rejects it, then hey, no skin off Kenny's back. If Hossa says, "Alright, I'm listening," the Wings' financial situation is not so tight that any situation involving Hossa coming here would surely drive the team straight into the ground for all eternity (*volcano*, *lightning*, *tsunami*, *atom bomb*, *nuclear winter*, etc.) Moreover, as I've also said before, I'm not crazy about this "We don't need ___" argument. We didn't need Dallas Drake. We didn't need Darren McCarty. We didn't need Brad Stuart. Personnel decisions aren't always made on a strict, unforgiving "absolutely need/absolutely don't need" basis, especially with a "flexible" team like the Wings. So, while we may not absolutely, unequivocally need a guy like Hossa, he would certainly be a phenomenal addition and is therefore worth at least a generic phone call expressing interest in his services. Furthermore, I question the notion that all we "need" to do is "fill out the bottom of our roster." In my opinion, "the bottom" is set on both forward and D. Regarding the former, we have names like Maltby, McCarty, Hudler, Helm and Kopecky to work with. Regarding the latter, we have that pesky logjam everyone's talking about, with Lebda, Lilja, Meech, Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl all battling for the same one or two spots on the blue line. The point here is that if Holland is going to make a move for someone, that someone might as well be a top-tier someone (doesn't have to be Hossa), as we have more than enough secondary scorers (Flip, Sammy, Homer, etc.), energy guys, and depth defensemen. Even if Holland has no interest in Hossa, it might be worth getting his fingers in that pie, if only to screw with the Sharks and Stars, who will surely be making calls of their own.

Calm down. I'm not necessarily saying we should go after Hossa. Furthermore, as I've stated numerous times, it's extremely unlikely that he'll be playing in Motown this season. The whole thing is basically a pipe dream, and I'm well aware of this fact. Now, having said that, I'm going to reiterate another point I've made several times already: if you're Ken Holland, and you learn there's a chance you could sign Hossa without absolutely breaking your back, you're going to make at least one courtesy phone call. That's not me talking, that's just common sense. In reality, Kenny could conceivably sign Hossa without "wreaking havoc" on the Wings' financial situation. As NN pointed out, some creative work on Kenny's part could land Hossa here without costing us the likes of Flip or Mule, and with a reasonable cushion left over. I'm sure Kenny realizes this, which is why I expect him to make at least a decent push for Hossa's services. Do I think think Hossa will come here? Again, no. But all of these fire and brimstone arguments about Hossa being a bankrupting antiChrist are a bit much.

Personally, I think "He's gonna cost a lot" is a borderline truism. When I ask for legitimate reasons, I'm assuming it's already commonly understood that the dude's gonna be pricey. But now I'm derailing the thread....

Hossa would tie our hands a bit, for sure. I guess the way I see it is, if Kenny's going to sign him, it will be at a good price. In light of how careful he's been in this new cap world, he's not going to put the team in a big hole by throwing ridiculous money and terms at someone. So, I'm not sure it's worth arguing that Hossa would put a huge strain on us, because, should that look to be be the case, Holland won't even bother.

So close!

Hossa is every bit as well-rounded as Mule. If you've ever watched him play (I mean really watched him), you'd know he's arguably one of the most defensively aware and responsible top-line forwards in the league. That's his appeal: he's a lights-out scorer who also has a great defensive game. My question is this: Does anyone who doesn't want Hossa on this team have any, you know, legitimate arguments?