Echolalia

lol "Teams planning to beat the Red Wings would enter a game with the sound strategy to dump the puck into Lidstrom's end in order to force him to turn and get the puck, creating an opportunity to wear him down physically. It was almost impossible to execute because his hand-eye coordination was so good; he'd often block the dump-in attempt and start the attack the other way. "He knocked everything down at the blue line," Blake said. "Guys would get so frustrated. They'd go to the other side because it was no use. They avoided him as much as possible and it set up the whole Detroit game.""

I finally get to watch a game, so hopefully they put in a good effort.

It is known

I think Justin Bourne does a good job explaining what I think our problem is mostly due to here: http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/864998

Fourth liners aren't going to score a lot, and their +/- typically is going to be poor simply because of the situations where they are on the ice. I don't think Miller has had a very strong season thus far, but neither has the rest of the team. If after a half season or so (after the team has had time to adapt to any new strategy that Blashill is implementing) Miller still looks bad then I'd be more inclined to entertain sitting him, but right now I think the biggest issue is system-based, and more specifically the players still trying to adapt to the system (and Blashill trying to adapt his system to the NHL). I don't think our problems have to do with individual player performances.

Tuesday Night, October 27th, Dan Cleary watched as the Detroit Red Wings gently caressed out of the dressing room and vigorously stepped onto the ice for their pregame skate. Zetterberg fired pucks at the applesauce while Kalamazoo fans watched in envy. You could tell that the sticky referees were going to have to keep an eye on the teacup as it was going to be a fast game due to the moist skating abilities of both teams. Eric Staal's hairy hair was flowing ala 90's Fedorov style, and Henrik Zetterberg's bodaciuos beard could have scared a Zdeno Chara. The Red Wings line-up was depleted due to a severe case of Takotsubo cardiomyopathy, while the Hurricanes were sporting a fairly stinky team full of tubular youngsters and poopy veterans. Jeff Blashill's shoelace needed no adjusting, and Nick Kronwall's preparation was nothing short of edible, Instead of Jouney's "Don't Stop Believing", the music selector was going to play Big Girls Dont Cry if the Red Wings prevailed. The starting line-ups were announced, but Krsmith couldn't believe Blashill was going to start Andersson. Rick Zombo Rick Zomboed at Tatar, while kipwinger encouraged Riley's Brother. The ref finally tripped the puck, and everyone could, at last, start calling out Riley Sheahan as the geoduck. lol some of this is golden. Jeff Blashill's shoelace is in need of no adjusting. Lets drop the puck.

I can't believe Blashill is starting Abdelkader.

If that second line isn't pushed to the perimeter all night long I'll be shocked. Replace literally anyone on the second line with anyone on the third line and I'll be happier. Then again, lines on paper rarely behave how I'd expect in an actual game so maybe they kick ass tonight.

The issue I have is with you saying that our defense is fine when they're giving up the amount of shots on net they're giving up, the scoring chances they're allowing, the inability to get the puck out of our zone, the habit of regularly turning the puck over, the frequently missed assignments in the slot, the anemia of offensive contributions, the struggle to control rebounds, and so on and so on. Any of these parameters suggest that our defense is not "decent to above average", and all of them together scream that our defense has simply been awful. Its loony to neglect them and define good defense exclusively as low even strength goals allowed. All these other paramers are included in a defense's responsibility so why throw them out? Its like a doctor saying a patient is healthy because they haven't died yet despite they're not controlling their diabetes, hypertension, peripheral vascular disease, excessive drug habit, coronary artery disease, dislipidemia etc etc. Also I'm not sure where "the defense is just as bad as the offense and special teams" claim is coming from. I've certainly never said nor implied that, and that hasn't been my argument, although for some reason you seem to be suggesting that it is. In fact I said a few times in this discussion that I think theres a ton wrong with this team right now, special teams included. But I'm not going to look at the situation with a narrow point of view and ignore all the problems with the exception of one or two. If the defense is playing poorly I acknowedge it as I'm doing now. Same with the offense, or goaltending, or special teams, or specific lines. That's something for whatever reason you seem to be struggling with.

I think he's here to stay. Things happen when hes on the ice.

We're going in circles here. If you still think the defense has been good, despite not even watching the last game and using one narrow, primarily goalie-based statistic for the basis of your argument, then clearly after two pages of debating, no amount of statistical or anecdotal evidence I or anyone else puts forth is going to change your mind. I still think you're crazy though. The whole team needs work.

lol i have no idea what you're trying to say here so maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but my point was that its unfair to include powerplay goals and empty net goals against the goalie stats while only using even strength goal against to count against the defense . In this case the criteria for goalies is much bigger (and includes way higher scoring chances) than the criteria used for defense, yet you still used those numbers as an argument to why defense is playing relatively better than the goalies. I would expect goalies numbers to look worse if they're also being evaluated based on powerplay and empty netters, and defense are only on the hook for even strength goals. When the criteria is the same for both goalies and defense, the picture looks much different.

You're erroneously using data which includes power play goals against in that category, which is a poor comparison because by your own admission you're measuring defense performance exclusively by even strength goals against (which is just ridiculous). It also doesn't accont for the amount of shots or scoring chances our goalies have faced compared to other teams, which is disproportionately high relative to other teams. Mrazek (who was in net during the game in question) is 7th in the league in even strength goals against, and 10th league wide in ES save percentage, and when you limit that to goalies who have started in equal or more games as him he's 8th league-wide with a .953 save percentage, which is damn good. Its also worth mentioning that he's facing 32 even strength shots/game while the next highest ES shots/game goalie above him has only faced 26.5 shots/game. The average for the top 10 goalies is 23.2. Very managable workload for the best in the league. So I disagree vehemently that our goalies have been worse. Howard hasn't been all to hot, but Mrazek is maintaining top 10 stats while facing an average of 9 shots more than the competition.

It also matters if you're worried about variables skewing the data, such as goaltending. Especially when the only statistical criteria you're interested in looking at is ESGA which is primarily a goaltending statistic.

Like I mentioned earlier on in this conversation, that's a very dangerous game to play, especially with such a small sample size, and a couple hot goaltenders buffering those numbers. Anyway, my position was never that it was exclusively defense that is to blame for our losses. I think almost the entire team stinks right now in just about every facet of the game. Defense included.

So what's your definition of defense? Even strength goals against exclusively? How convenient. And every other defensively-influenced statistic under the sun we're just going to throw out the window because it doesn't support your argument? If we go by your incredibly narrow interpretation of what defense is, then yes I agree the even strength goals against...err... "defense" has been well up to this point (if well is considered 14th in the league). But shots against is bad. Defensive zone turnovers are bad. Outlet passes have been bad. Scoring chances against have been bad. The list goes on and on. But don't let that fool you into thinking our defense is bad.

You're misinterpreting what I wrote. I was explaining why forwards have the amount of penalties they do, not insinuating that they're the main reason why our defense is so bad like you seem to be suggesting. How many of those penalties do you think were the result of an isolated lazy play by the forward? How many were the result of a defensize zone turnover or somebody trying to cover for someone else missing their assignment? Although just a side note I do believe forwards are responsible for team defense the same way that defensman are responsible for team offense. And I think both sides of the puck have been poor in that regard, as I mentioned earlier. Aside from Zetterberg, Larkin, Abdelkader, and the goalies, I think this team hasn't played well in just about any category. But again, you're exclusively grading the defense just by even strength goals against. Do you not care about shots against? Scoring chances against? Defensive zone turnovers? Neutral zone turnovers? Missed assignments? Scoring chances generated? Goals? Assists? Giveaways? Takeaways? Time spent in defensive zone? Time spent in offensive zone? First pass out? The only criteria that you're judging the defense on is even strength goals against, which is a stat that is heavily influenced by the performance of the goalie, and ours happen to be playing pretty solid hockey right now. And again, it makes absolutely no sense to me, because last year with Babs behind the bench you had a field day against this defense because they were so poor in the transition game. I would expect you to be up in arms about how bad its been this year because of your history, but the reaction is quite the opposite from you and I don't get why.

Defense is not limited to just defensman. When the Wings are defending an attack or rush, I'm hoping that all five people on the ice are playing defense. And in that scenario, if an offensive player takes a penalty, its still a defenive penalty. If you're satisfied in evaluating our defense exclusively on even strength goals against (without even seeing the game for that matter), then by all means continue to do so, but that's an incredibly dangerous game to play, not to mention a very narrow view of their performance, especially in a 5 game total sample size. What happened to bitching about our defenseman's first pass out, or inability to skate out of danger that you were so enthusiastic about last year? Those things are noticibly worse this year, yet all of a sudden by your standard our defense is not an issue, and they've been pretty good so far.

Seems a little simplistic. The goalie could play excellent and bail out a shaky defense, as we've seen here from time to time. Also s***ty 5 on 5 defense is often what leads to having to play on the PK to begin with, so I think its short-sighted to pin a shorthanded goal exclusively on the penalty killing squad without recognizing who's fault it was that the Wings were even shorthanded. In this game the Wings were outshot 41 to 22, and were shorthanded 5 times. Defense didn't look good 5 on 5. It didn't look good 5 on 4. Offense didn't look good 5 on 5. Offense didn't look good 5 on 4. Transition game didnt look good. Defense wasn't the only reason the Wings lost. But their poor game definitely played a part, 5 on 5 or otherwise.

I'm not sure if it was even a reviewable play because Toronto was looking at it already.

I never said you did. I asked if that's what you were referring to because you didn't specify, and still haven't. So again, if you don't mean fighting, what are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that fighting would stop it?

I disagree that the problem is the players. Last year Wings were averaging 29.6 shots per game with much of the same roster that we have now. This year they're shooting 21.4, which is last in the NHL. If anything, that number should be higher than last year's because we have Larkin and Green on the team, and Richards effectively replaced Weiss. But its not just offensive struggles. Last year they allowed 28.3 shots/game, and this year its 33.4 shots/game, good for 4th worst in NHL. Powerplay last year 23.8%. This year 15.4%. And again, its largely the same roster between now and then with the exception of a few players. That tells me its the system moreso than the players. And watching the game and seeing where the team is struggling confirms that as well. The turnovers that we have at our blueline/neutral zone have been killer because we haven't had guys in position to cover on the event of a turnover. Its often the 4th or 5th guy back trying to skate the puck up or pass it through a dangerous lane and it gets taken away, and all of a sudden theres an odd-man rush coming at our goalie. In the offensive zone we're playing more perimeter hockey than ever before, with literally almost no slot presence. And sporadically the Wings also seem to be neglecting the full ice, and have been overloading one half of the rink, which makes it easier for the other team to cover. Maybe Blash wants more guys in close proximity to support the puck carrier in case of a turnover, I dunno. But the problem is it limits the effectiveness of a pass because your only option is a couple feet away, and not really out of trouble. It has also led to our guys running into each other alot and inadvertently taking away their own time and space, which is just ridiculous and frusterating to watch. Anyway, its only been five games so its not like the season is over. But Blashill needs to display why he's been successful at every level he's coached and adapt to what's going on. That mean's recognizing right now that what's implemented isn't working, and make adjustments accordingly.

Green didn't look good there

Blashill needs to reevaluate how he's utilizing these players. There's no excuse for the amount of talent that's on this team to be struggling the way they are.