Grigorenko

[Hank 0]

$3 mil in their rookie years (and less in the following years) would be equivalent to $1.5 mil. in Russia. That is what Alexei Morozov is making in Russia now. Malkin was reportedly offered $3 mil.by Magnitogorsk. Do you really think that OV or Kovalchuk would command less?

As to lifestyle, Washington and even more so Atlanta have nothing that Moscow doesn't have in that department. New York or perhaps LA may be the only possible competition.

So no, the Russians are here for the chance to compete against the best and not for the money. They could have earned more staying in Russia.

But that's just it. Kovy and A.O. get to travel all over North America and get to see some truly awesome things. Beautiful locations, woman, climates, etc. And lets not forget that there are still issues with Hepititius and other diseases in Russia.

My uncle played in that Russian tour with Larionov last year and he said while Moscow was nice some of the places they traveled to outside of the city weren't exactly 5 star. Meanwhile, other Russians in the NHL would never have to worry about things like that wherever they went. Even Edmonton

If I was told that I could make the same amount here or in Russia I'd pick North American everytime.

And from what I've read, Kovy made close to $4.5 milliion his first year. I doubt any Russian club could match that money and the kind of glamourous lifestyle that the NHL can.

I also think you're missing the longterm ramifications for staying in Russia longer. By coming to the NHL earlier you'll be cashing in a larger, long-term contract earlier as well. If Malkin had stayed longer that means he'd be 1 year removed from making that giant $7 mil/year contract earlier. And lets not forget the injury factor. What if he breaks his leg out there? His career could have been over before it started.

Face it, if you're a big talent, the NHL provides way more than Russia. Sure, if you're Morozov and you'd be a 3rd liner here then it's probably better to stay in Russia and be a big fish in a small pond for the same amount or even more money. But for guys like A.O., Malkin and Kovalchuk there's no comparison.

I should add that if it really was that close then why do they still come over? If Malkin could have made more money there why would he leave?

If the #1 hockey league in the world was in Russia and I had the chance to play there over staying home with my family, friends and all that's familiar to me for MORE money, I would never leave.

But the fact is, the NHL and North America provides more money, more comfort and more challenge than the Russian leagues and way-of-life ever could.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Hank

[RusDRW 155]

Beautiful locations, woman, climates, etc. And lets not forget that there are still issues with Hepititius and other diseases in Russia.

)) You are wrong on every aspect you claimed. Is it a common way of thinking about Russia in NA?

[Hank 0]

)) You are wrong on every aspect you claimed. Is it a common way of thinking about Russia in NA?

I will take the liberty to speak for all North Americans and say 'yes'.

Is there anywhere in Russia that is comparible to Vegas? Or South Beach? Or Venice? Or has the beautiful mountains of Colorado?

[sibiriak 84]

But that's just it. Kovy and A.O. get to travel all over North America and get to see some truly awesome things. Beautiful locations, woman, climates, etc. And lets not forget that there are still issues with Hepititius and other diseases in Russia.

Except the pro athletes rarely see anything except airport-hotel-rink-airport in their travels. And after you visit Miami, LA or New York a few times, it becomes routine anyway. It is indicative, that both Kovalchukand Ovechkin choose tospend their vacations in Europe and in Russia, rather than stay and explore the "Beautiful locations" in NA. When you can afford it, you can go see beautiful locations allover the world. Russia itself has quite a few awsome tourist attractions. And many of them have an RSL team nearby. So apart fromthe novelty factor, the sightseeing is hardly important.

Don't even start me on women. Russian girls (and especially Siberian ones, where many RSL clubs are based) are IMO more beautiful on average than NA ones are. And they are better to live with (again on average), especially for a Russian guy.

Hepatitis? If one Elias got it, it doesn't mean it runs rampant. If you can afford normal private medicine, you are no worse off there than here. And HIV rates are lower. Plus the incidence of either is too low to worry about.

Again, let me stress, that to be poor in Russia sucks much more than being poor in America, but to be rich in Russia is IMO better than in NA.

My uncle played in that Russian tour with Larionov last year and he said while Moscow was nice some of the places they traveled to outside of the city weren't exactly 5 star. Meanwhile, other Russians in the NHL would never have to worry about things like that wherever they went. Even Edmonton

Yes,hotels in smaller cities outside Moscow are not yet caught up, and some RSL arenas are subpar. But there've been at least 1 or 2 new modern arenas built every year for the last several years. In another 4-5 years all RSLteams willbe palaying in new modern arenas. Service infrasructure is also being rapidly improved. And there's at least one passable hotel in any decent size city. Some have very good hotels too.

If I was told that I could make the same amount here or in Russia I'd pick North American everytime.

And from what I've read, Kovy made close to $4.5 milliion his first year. I doubt any Russian club could match that money and the kind of glamourous lifestyle that the NHL can.

And so you should, all other things equal, because you were born here. But I think that if asked, many Russian players would rather play at home forthe same amount of money, if the competition level was the same, which it is not.

Kovalchuk's $4.5 mil. here means that after federal, atate, and local taxes, social security taxes, propety taxes etc. he'd be lucky to actually see $2.3 mil.in his bank account. That many Russain clubs certainly can afford.

And please, define glamorous. What does Kovalchukget todo in Atlanta, that he couldn't do in Moscow, St.Petersburg, Kazan, or Novosibirsk? Go to the Atlanta Aquarium?

I also think you're missing the longterm ramifications for staying in Russia longer. By coming to the NHL earlier you'll be cashing in a larger, long-term contract earlier as well. If Malkin had stayed longer that means he'd be 1 year removed from making that giant $7 mil/year contract earlier. And lets not forget the injury factor. What if he breaks his leg out there? His career could have been over before it started.

Face it, if you're a big talent, the NHL provides way more than Russia. Sure, if you're Morozov and you'd be a 3rd liner here then it's probably better to stay in Russia and be a big fish in a small pond for the same amount or even more money. But for guys like A.O., Malkin and Kovalchuk there's no comparison.

Yes, the injury factor is there, but it applies to all players everywhere. You could lose your $1mil. from Amur Khabarovskif you are hurt, and you could lose your $2 mil. from the Nasville predators. Either way you lose a lot of money.

You admitted yourself, that the largest contracts are only likely for the top 10 Russians at best. The rest could earn comparable life-time amounts in NA and in Russia, if you take into account the difference in taxes and purchasing power.

So lets concentrate on the top tier only. The numbers are hypothetical, but I think close to reality.

Let's say Malkin (age 19) can get $3 mil. (after tax) for 3 years from "Magnitka" and then $4 mil. for the next 5 years, and then 4.5 mil. for another 5 years, and then $3mil. for another 5 years. Then he retires at 37. All this time he lives in his home country, close to his family, doesn't need to learn English, or to have to drag an interpreter with him everywhere he goes. He can play for his National teamin all World Championships and Olympics, and Euro hockey tour etc. He would never have to play more than 60 games in the regular season.

Or he can go to the NHL, where he would earn $3 mil.in his first year (assuming he hits all the bonuses), and under $2 mil.for the next two years. That amounts to $1.5mil., $1 mil.,and $1mil. after taxes for his first three years. Then he becomes a restricted free agent, which means that i's unlikely that the other teams will sign him,they'd have togive up too much. Coupled with the cap, which means that no team can have 2 players at the league max, this would mean something like $4mil. - $5mil. per year at most until Malkin turns 26 and becomes a UFA. That's $2-$2.5 mil. after taxes for another 4 years. Then, Malkin gets his payday (assuming there's no new rollback of the salaries, or lowering of the cap meantime). He gets $8mil.per year ($4 after tax) for another 7 years. After that he is getting older, so he would get, say $5 ($2.5) mil. per year on average for the rest of his career (4 more years). Again, he retires at 37. But he would have played a 100 games a year instead of 70-80, so his chances of getting injured and having a shorter career are much higher. He would be away from his parents and friends all this time. He won't be able to play in too many international tournaments for Russia.

But lets ignore all the intangibles. Let's just look at the after tax income streams in each case.

Russia: 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4.5 4.5 4.5 4.5 4.5 3 3 3 3 3

NHL: 1.5 1 1 2 2.5 2.5 2.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2.5 2.5 2.5 2.5

It seems that the NHL income stream is very much inferior compared to the Russian one. And that is a top tier player.

You can paly with the numbers, but the basic assumptions are valid, I think.

[Anomalously 0]

I'm getting a kick out of the categorical and damn-near xenophobic assumptions being made in this thread.

On average women in Siberia are better to live with than American women? In your opinion? How many women of each have you sampled? It's better to be rich in Russia than rich in the U.S.? I'm sure you've been rich in both countries and are letting us know by relevant living experiences.

Or how about Hank speaking for all North Americans in saying that the U.S., plain and simple, is better -- because they don't have Vegas. Maybe Ovechkin is a history buff -- in that case, there's a few thousand more years of civilized history for him to take in if he's in Russia.

Russian players come over for quite a few reasons, I'm sure, but the fact is that most are coming over. Very seldom (Morozov) a [edit: top-flight] player stays in Russia. I wouldn't try pinpointing one reason why all 35 Russian NHLers are here. I'm sure they are different from one another... my buddy has a physical preference for Asian women -- personally, I'm not a huge fan.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Anomalously

[sibiriak 84]

I will take the liberty to speak for all North Americans and say 'yes'.

Is there anywhere in Russia that is comparible to Vegas? Or South Beach? Or Venice? Or has the beautiful mountains of Colorado?

Vegas? Yes, Moscow for gambling, sightseeing and nightlife. The kitch and drivethrough weddings you can keep.

South Beach? No. But unless you are playing for the Panthers, you can onky go there on vacation. Which anyone in Russia can do, if they have the money. And Thailand or Bali are in noway worse anyway.

Venice? Is that Venice, Italy? There's no NHL team there. But St.Peterburg is called "the Northern Venice".

And if it is Venice, Kansas, then you can keep it.

Caucasus mountains or Altai mountains are in no way inferior to Colorado. And much less commercialized.

Not to mention the lake Baikal, "the golden ring" of Central Russia, the Volga river, the Siberian forests and rivers, the geysers and mountains of Kamchatka peninsula, architecture and art treasures of St Petersburg and Moscow, great museums and galleries in many other cities. 11 time zones, climates varying from tundra to subtropics, national parks and simply forest you can walk in, located just few commuter train stops from a city of a million people.

In its natural and cultural variety, of all things, US got nothing on Russia.

I'm getting a kick out of the categorical and damn-near xenophobic assumptions being made in this thread.

On average women in Siberia are better to live with than American women? In your opinion? How many women of each have you sampled? It's better to be rich in Russia than rich in the U.S.? I'm sure you've been rich in both countries and are letting us know by relevant living experiences.

Or how about Hank speaking for all North Americans in saying that the U.S., plain and simple, is better -- because they don't have Vegas. Maybe Ovechkin is a history buff -- in that case, there's a few thousand more years of civilized history for him to take in if he's in Russia.

Russian players come over for quite a few reasons, I'm sure, but the fact is that most are coming over. Very seldom (Morozov) a [edit: top-flight] player stays in Russia. I wouldn't try pinpointing one reason why all 35 Russian NHLers are here. I'm sure they are different from one another... my buddy has a physical preference for Asian women -- personally, I'm not a huge fan.

I agree. My women comment was more of a joke in response to the same claim made by Hank. And I hope you would grant me, that living with a girl who has the same language/cultural background as you (all other things equal) is easier than if you come from totally different backgrounds (again all other things being equal).

I can't speak for the reasons why each russian player came to the NHL. For the older crowd, who came in the 1990s, it was more likely the only way to earn decent living with their skills. But for the newer generation, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Ovechkin etc., earning same or greater amount of money in Russia is quite possible now. So I'd guess that they come for the challenge and not so much for the money. Which is my whole point.