The Elite That You've Lost Respect For

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

It's sad but I gave up on my own thread already, and F.Michael since nothing is getting through to you, I'll finish my involvment in this debate by *once again* stating the whole basis of my arguement:

Do players get upset and take cheap liberties on the other team: Yes. Does it make it right: No. The fact that you condone that type of play because "that's how its always been" is what I don't agree with. Guys like Yzerman may get frusterated from time to time, but I've never seen him hacking at opposing teams star players from behind when they were nowhere near the play. When the Sharks are down and out of a game, Thornton is starting to be known for his temper. Same can be said about Iginla.

End Thread

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Fresh material? You're the one saying to leave it as is, because this is how players have always been. I find that ridiculous because there are plenty of examples of players that play the game with integrity. I bring up a couple players that haven't and you defend them as if its inconsequential seeing as that this is hockey has "always been".

Did you ever see guys like Yzerman ever slash a guy from behind when the team was down and out? That's my point.

Sidenote: Speaking of being original.....way to use the "Dear God please make it stop" kid. I didn't realilze you came up with that?

This is a funny topic, truly. Well, in the spirit of instigating, GST is going to spout off here for a sec...

Here's what I know to be true as best as I can tell:

1. Those who claim to "lose respect" for players like Thornton or Iginla for what they did in ONE GAME or maybe 3 SHIFTS OF A GAME never played the game the way those players play it. I guarantee that if you made those comments, when you played hockey (if that was the case) you were not prone to nasty play and you most definitely don't fight. Doesn't make you a bad person at all, just speaks volumes for why you take the position you take on this.

2. Homerism is rampant here. As Wings fans, we see what gets pointed out to us and gets amplified because its a Redwings feed with Mick and Ken. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if we watched one of our guys do this, there wouldn't be a thread about losing respect for Sergei Fedorov or Brendan Shanahan or Henrik Zetterberg. You all saw the highlights from the 2 games. Chelios flattened Big Joe with that elbow to the face. Big Joe isn't going to let that slide. Accidental or not. What we don't see is all the other little stuff Cheli does to rile up other players. The only thing we did see was Thornton hacking and whacking Chelios. Was he doing it unprovoked? Depends on how big a friggin' homer you are. Even though the elbow was a game prior, carryover is a ***** and you have to deal with it. Was it necessary to slash Zetterberg? Of course not, but anybody who claims (Harold) that this is not something that goes on all the time please. It doesn't happen in our games all the time and it doesn't happen in the majority of games played. When it does happen frequently is when you play a team that's either a conference or divisional rival, whom you just played not too long ago where memories are still fresh and some bitterness may still linger. Add in a lopsided score and this s*** happens almost every time in these situations.

The bottom line in all this is that people need to get off their friggin pedestals already. "i lost some respect for Joe Thornton" because he slashed Z or went back at chelios. Cry me a friggin river already. Telecasts rarely catch all of the umpteen nasty exchanges, both verbal and physical that take place off camera by players not involved in the play or players coming off the ice, etc..... In 20 years of playing hockey I can probably count on one hand the number of games I played in where I didn't see somebody take a shot at another guy when the game was so obviously one-sided.

Maybe its wrong for me to call people out as homers on this but I truly believe that if the shoe were on the other foot, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Frankly, this topic reminds me of Kornhieser bagging on hockey because of fighting in general. If you don't have history with this kind of stuff, if you didn't play that way then you don't get it and in your eyes its going to look like garbage and you're going to take your homeristic, morale high ground cause its happening to our guys. This is bulls*** and ridiculous. Its hockey, guys take little stabs at each other all the time. Grow a thicker skin already and quit being such a baby about everything that happens to Wings players.

This post not directed at any one person. Cheers!

It's sad but I gave up on my own thread already, and F.Michael since nothing is getting through to you, I'll finish my involvment in this debate by *once again* stating the whole basis of my arguement:

Do players get upset and take cheap liberties on the other team: Yes. Does it make it right: No. The fact that you condone that type of play because "that's how its always been" is what I don't agree with. Guys like Yzerman may get frusterated from time to time, but I've never seen him hacking at opposing teams star players from behind when they were nowhere near the play. When the Sharks are down and out of a game, Thornton is starting to be known for his temper. Same can be said about Iginla.

End Thread

No offense Mac, but not everybody is Steve Yzerman and not everybody should have to play like him. Jeez, how boring would the game of hockey be if everybody was polite and PC and just skated away whenever they got trounced? I have no problem with a player, especially a great player who is supposed to lead his team, doing whatever it takes to fire up his mates. Be it scoring a goal, drilling somebody threw the boards or playing chippy and fighting. Why can't everybody be the way Mark Messier was? Mess should be the poster child for guys like Iggy and Joe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with how Mark Messier played the game nor is it wrong that he didn't play it like Steve Yzerman. And no, its not a knock on Yzerman.

[eva unit zero 271]

No offense Mac, but not everybody is Steve Yzerman and not everybody should have to play like him. Jeez, how boring would the game of hockey be if everybody was polite and PC and just skated away whenever they got trounced? I have no problem with a player, especially a great player who is supposed to lead his team, doing whatever it takes to fire up his mates. Be it scoring a goal, drilling somebody threw the boards or playing chippy and fighting. Why can't everybody be the way Mark Messier was? Mess should be the poster child for guys like Iggy and Joe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with how Mark Messier played the game nor is it wrong that he didn't play it like Steve Yzerman. And no, its not a knock on Yzerman.

GST...if you truly believe this statement applies to the way Stevie was...you have never seen the man play. That said, Yzerman never resorted to the chippy unprovoked dirty s*** guys like Iginla are getting slammed for.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

No offense Mac, but not everybody is Steve Yzerman and not everybody should have to play like him. Jeez, how boring would the game of hockey be if everybody was polite and PC and just skated away whenever they got trounced? I have no problem with a player, especially a great player who is supposed to lead his team, doing whatever it takes to fire up his mates. Be it scoring a goal, drilling somebody threw the boards or playing chippy and fighting. Why can't everybody be the way Mark Messier was? Mess should be the poster child for guys like Iggy and Joe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with how Mark Messier played the game nor is it wrong that he didn't play it like Steve Yzerman. And no, its not a knock on Yzerman.

Seriously GS&T?

This isn't about Yzerman, and it sure as hell isn't about playing chippy, fighting or drilling somebody. I'm all for alll of those things. What I'm not for is a guy slashing our star player from behind because he's pissed off that his team is getting their lunch handed to them.

Also, I've played the game for over 15 years and I was all for physical play. I got angry just as much as anybody, and physical play would start to show, but I showed it by drilling a guy into the boards with a legal hit.

You should've noticed that this thread wasn't the result of "one game" or "3 shifts of a game". If that were the case, I wouldn't have posted about this at all.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

It's official.....

Finally something we agree on.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GST...if you truly believe this statement applies to the way Stevie was...you have never seen the man play. That said, Yzerman never resorted to the chippy unprovoked dirty s*** guys like Iginla are getting slammed for.

Mac, this all boils down to what you think should happen or what way you think the game should be played. The fact that you're a wings fan and use Yzerman as the example for which all players should be held to that standard reflects a personal bias, which is fine as you are entitled. In the end, we're all free to respect or not respect whomever we choose and we all have a right to express how we think the game should be played, especially by those who are losing. I respectfully disagree and personally think that people are being too thin skinned about it and are being homers becuase it involves Z getting slashed. Nobody seems to bring up the crap we pulled the night Nashville whooped up on us. I seem to remember Shanny starting a fight with a then, very young Adam Hall after a goal, Chely flipping out after a goal and going after someone and Yzerman berating the refs and getting thrown out of the game. Did you lose respect for those 3 when that happened? Is it any better to berate and curse an official to the point where they kick you out of the game than to give a whack to the back of the leg like Joe did?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Mac, this all boils down to what you think should happen or what way you think the game should be played. The fact that you're a wings fan and use Yzerman as the example for which all players should be held to that standard reflects a personal bias, which is fine as you are entitled. In the end, we're all free to respect or not respect whomever we choose and we all have a right to express how we think the game should be played, especially by those who are losing. I respectfully disagree and personally think that people are being too thin skinned about it and are being homers becuase it involves Z getting slashed. Nobody seems to bring up the crap we pulled the night Nashville whooped up on us. I seem to remember Shanny starting a fight with a then, very young Adam Hall after a goal, Chely flipping out after a goal and going after someone and Yzerman berating the refs and getting thrown out of the game. Did you lose respect for those 3 when that happened? Is it any better to berate and curse an official to the point where they kick you out of the game than to give a whack to the back of the leg like Joe did?

This has nothing to do with how I think the game should be played. I'm talking about playing by the rules and with integrity. Slashing a guy from behind who is nowhere near the play is not only a penalty, but its cheap. The fact that it was Z is irrelavant. I don't care if it was Samuelsson that he slashed. The point is, I'm a huge advocate for fast-paced, physical, hard-hitting hockey. Last night when there was about 10 minutes left, the Canucks had a shift where they hit any Red Wing in sight. They were clean hits, and it fired up the team. That's great IMO. If slashing a guy from behind when your team is down and out of a game gets your team fired up, then I find that sad.

Sidenote: Comparing Yzerman chewing out a ref and getting kicked out of a game is nothing like slashing a player from behind that isn't even in the play. Stevie was fired up, and he let the ref know how pissed he was. He was standing up for his team. How is that anything like what Thorton did, or does when he gets frustrated?

Sidenote 2: I'm not expecting anyone to play with the standard Yzerman did. I feel every player should play the way that's made them successful as long as its *within the rules*. Simple as that.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

This has nothing to do with how I think the game should be played. I'm talking about playing by the rules and with integrity. Slashing a guy from behind who is nowhere near the play is not only a penalty, but its cheap. The fact that it was Z is irrelavant. I don't care if it was Samuelsson that he slashed. The point is, I'm a huge advocate for fast-paced, physical, hard-hitting hockey. Last night when there was about 10 minutes left, the Canucks had a shift where they hit any Red Wing in sight. They were clean hits, and it fired up the team. That's great IMO. If slashing a guy from behind when your team is down and out of a game gets your team fired up, then I find that sad.

Sidenote: Comparing Yzerman chewing out a ref and getting kicked out of a game is nothing like slashing a player from behind that isn't even in the play. Stevie was fired up, and he let the ref know how pissed he was. He was standing up for his team. How is that anything like what Thorton did, or does when he gets frustrated?

Sidenote 2: I'm not expecting anyone to play with the standard Yzerman did. I feel every player should play the way that's made them successful as long as its *within the rules*. Simple as that.

So I assume you agree, that Chelios and Shanahan should've lost some respect for instigating fights with Hall, who had just scored and was skating to the bench with no intention of fighting, simply because they were frustrated. Instigating a fight or abusing officials is no more within the rules than slashing somebody is. But of course you can defend our guys but the other guys are not worthy of respect.

Just look at what your wrote about Stevie. That's classic, make excuse for anything just to be a homer. Please, Stevie got called for something, didn't like it, was frustrated and couldn't control himself so he started berating and cursing the officials and got tossed out. That's verbal abuse and yes, its different than a physical slash but within the bigger picture, its the same thing: Frustrated player cannot control self, so does something selfish. End of story.

Personally, you're making a big to do about nothing. And the only reason you're making a deal out of it is because it happened to Wings players. IMO, it smacks of a bit of niavete on your part. When you get down to it, you didn't and cannot know what happened every single shift of the game. You don't know what, if anything transpired between them. You're not on the ice to know that that slash wasn't for anything that may have transpired earlier in the game or other games. It's quite obvious big joe did what he did to Chely for things that had happened prior to that. Who is to say with 100% certainty that Joe didn't slash Z for some reason. How can you with 100% certainty that Z did nothing to get the ire of Big Joe so that he slashed him?

Whatever, my first comment holds for me still, that this is a funny, incredibly ridiculous thread IMO. In all of professional sports, players, when frustrated do things that have nothing to do with playing the game on the up and up. Be it a viciously hard foul in basketball or intentionally throwing at a batter's head or cleating someone in football or deliberately hitting them in the helmet, it is part of the game. Is it legal, no, that's why these things are supposed to be penalized. Is speeding legal? No, but its a part of everyday life and gazillions of people do it. Slashing is a part of hockey and just about everyone who has ever laced up a pair has slashed somebody at some point in the game where the act had absolutely nothing to do with playing the puck or the game in general. It's just a freaking slash. We're making mountains out of mole hills. The next time one of our guys gives somebody not in the play a two-hander, lets see you post how you've lost respect for them as well.

GST...if you truly believe this statement applies to the way Stevie was...you have never seen the man play. That said, Yzerman never resorted to the chippy unprovoked dirty s*** guys like Iginla are getting slammed for.

Jeez Eva, relax. I was trying to make a point. Poor choice of words on my part. The point was not so much that stevie wouldn't do anything if we were losing. It was more that he wouldn't do the hacking and s*** that Iggy or Joe or Messier would. IMO, there's nothing wrong with the way Stevie handled things and there's nothing wrong with the way Messier handled things. They're just different and to address the OP, HELL, NO! I don't lose respect for guys that play it the way Mess did versus the way Stevie did. Now, guys like Pronger, Marchment, Lemieux, different story.