The most prestigious individual award?

[Opie 308]

Looking back over hockey history, great players are judged more by Harts than by Conn Smythes. That is a fact.

Really can you show me an example my small brain is having a hard time wrapping around that, so if you could show me a story where anyone talks about any player and mentions the number of Hart trophies as THE Reason they are great, not it being one of the secondary reasons.

I apparently need to see these facts you guys speak of, I have never seen the widely accepted fact that great players are made great by having Hart trophy caliber regular seasons, yet that player has done nothing in the playoffs.

Show me one great player who never made the post season, and prove he is great by all of his Hart trophies!

Let's say hypothetic we are comparing players one has 3 Conn Smythes and one has 3 Hart trophies, whom would you hold in higher regard.

Personally I would have to hold the 3 Smythes higher.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Opie

[Reds4Life 51]

You are telling me that if Z had won both the Hart and Conn Smythe that the Hart would mean more or be more prestigious, NO!!

The Hart maybe more prestigious for someone who doesn't or can't win the Smythe, but if you have them both or are in contention for both I would have to assume that winning the Conn Smythe would be a much more heralded award.

Yes I do. Please go and read some Hockey history book, search the internet, whatever. The fact is, Hart trophy is the most prestigious trophy. No contest. You have to be exceptional for 82 games. You get Conn Smythe only IF you play for the best team (you win the Stanley Cup .. yes few exceptions, but it only shows this is true).

Really by whom, because if that is the case this OPINION Based thread would have no barring because you would post a link to a site or a quote where all NHL players, or a majority would have said that, however you can't so please don't go around posting you opinion as widely accepted facts!

Again: read some Hockey history book, search the internet, whatever. The fact is, Hart tropy is the most prestigious trophy.

Why if a player never wins a championship are they not considered as great as players who have? If the Cup has nothing to with individuals, why does it resonate so soundly over their career achievements?

Because players are made and broken in the post season, therefore if you receive and honor like Best player in the NHL's post season, wouldn't that mean just a little more than in the regular season.

Because one player can only do so much. Ovechkin won Hart, Zetterberg got Conn Smythe. Who is the better player?

If we lost to Pens, Zetterberg would not win. Crosby would or Hossa or any other Pen.

You need to be lucky enough to have good teammates to win the Cup OR Conn Smythe.

Is the Post season not the league's biggest stage, so wouldn't the awards given out for post season play carry more weight.

Plus you say winning the Hart makes you an all-world player, really because I am pretty sure that is not what Jose Three or four is, Lindros, All world? Really, maybe in the Special Olympics (exaggeration be careful).

LOL

[Reds4Life 51]

Really can you show me an example my small brain is having a hard time wrapping around that, so if you could show me a story where anyone talks about any player and mentions the number of Hart trophies as THE Reason they are great, not it being one of the secondary reasons.

I apparently need to see these facts you guys speak of, I have never seen the widely accepted fact that great players are made great by having Hart trophy caliber regular seasons, yet that player has done nothing in the playoffs.

Show me one great player who never made the post season, and prove he is great by all of his Hart trophies!

Let's say hypothetic we are comparing players one has 3 Conn Smythes and one has 3 Hart trophies, whom would you hold in higher regard.

Personally I would have to hold the 3 Smythes higher.

Hasek. He never won Conn Smythe and is much better than Ken Dryden.

Jagr. He never won Conn Smythe and is much better than Brad Richards.

Plante. He never won Conn Smythe and is much better than Cam Ward.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Reds4Life

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Anyone who thinks the Hart is more prestigious than the Pearson is just flat out wrong. Like others have said- it means a hell of a lot more for your pears to say you're the MVP than a group of journalists that don't even play the game.

As for Pearson vs. the Con Smythe? Well that's a really tough call. On one hand regular season success means nothing compared to post season success, but on the other hand you're up against everyone else in the league for one and in a select group of people for the other.

The real knock against the Hart/Pearson is that it's so stats based. Defensemen and goalies are rarely considered for either trophy because goals and points are more glaring examples of dominance.

[Reds4Life 51]

Anyone who thinks the Hart is more prestigious than the Pearson is just flat out wrong. Like others have said- it means a hell of a lot more for your pears to say you're the MVP than a group of journalists that don't even play the game.

As for Pearson vs. the Con Smythe? Well that's a really tough call. On one hand regular season success means nothing compared to post season success, but on the other hand you're up against everyone else in the league for one and in a select group of people for the other.

The real knock against the Hart/Pearson is that it's so stats based. Defensemen and goalies are rarely considered for either trophy because goals and points are more glaring examples of dominance.

Hart tropy is given to the best player since 1924. Pearson since 1971.

This is no contest. Hart trophy is the most prestigious tropy individual can get.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Really by whom

-"The Hart Trophy is awarded annually to the player chosen by hockey writers as being "most valuable" to his NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE team. It was donated to the NHL in 1923 by Dr David A. Hart, father of Cecil Hart, former manager of the Montreal Canadiens. The oldest and most prestigious individual award in hockey, it was retired to the HOCKEY HALL OF FAME in 1960 and replaced by the Hart Memorial Trophy."

Ouch.

Probie for 5,

When did I say anything about the cup being an individual honor?

You:

How many players have ever said, I am sure glad I won the Hart trophy instead of the Cup.

Ouch.

Why if a player never wins a championship are they not considered as great as players who have? If the Cup has nothing to with individuals, why does it resonate so soundly over their career achievements?

Because players are made and broken in the post season, therefore if you receive and honor like Best player in the NHL's post season, wouldn't that mean just a little more than in the regular season.

Because most people are simpleminded s***-for-brains who think it's an individuals own fault for not having won a Cup or a championship or a Super Bowl, and it's these people that need to be eradicated from having an opinion about sports. These people buy way too much into the mainstream media bulls*** conjuring up mythical curses and stories about teams and players inability to "win the big one." Those stories sell newspapers, but they'll get you laughed out of a real debate. Players are not made and broken in a miniscule sample size in the postseason, but if that's what you believe, so be it.

Is the Post season not the league's biggest stage, so wouldn't the awards given out for post season play carry more weight.

So Deion Branch was the leagues best receiver when he won the Super Bowl MVP with the Patriots? Dexter Jackson was the leagues best safety when he won Super Bowl MVP with the Bucs? Hell, Chauncey Billups was the leagues best PG when he won Finals MVP with the Pistons? The answer is hell ******* no to all the above. They put forth great efforts while their great teams were marching towards victory. Postseason awards are hugely predicated on the success of your team as a whole. Alexander Ovechkin isn't a f***-up because he hasn't won a Smyth or led his team out of the first round.

Plus you say winning the Hart makes you an all-world player, really because I am pretty sure that is not what Jose Three or four is, Lindros, All world? Really, maybe in the Special Olympics (exaggeration be careful).

Theodore might be the lone exception in the long history of Hart winners who proved to be all-world players in their time - including Lindros.

Do you wish to stop digging now? The Hart is considered the most prestigious individual honor in the sport, and the Smythe is special in its own right. You'll have a tough time convincing any rational people(read: Non-Wings fans at the moment) that the Smythe holds more weight, though, based on all the factors that go into winning it.

[egroen 384]

You don't even have to try very hard to list example upon example...

Franzen could easily have won the Conn Smythe this year if he had not missed almost an entire round.

Edited June 13, 2008 by egroen

[Opie 308]

I say Z is better than AO as an all around player, who is the best offensive player in the world, AO hands down.

Who is on the ice on a 5-3 in the post season, when there team is assessed a bench minor whom is put in the box to serve it and who is on the ice to kill it.

Whom would I rather have on my team if I have one choice between the two, I take the Conn Smythe winner, but it has nothing to do with the award it has to do with who is the better all around player.

AO won the Hart, Pearson, and Ross, Z won the cup and the Smythe, fantastic I will take Z any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The Hart is based purely on offensive numbers, goals, assists, points. OR it is given to a goalie whose team had no right winning half the games they did!

AO won the Hart because he put up mad numbers.

Go read a book or the internet? Why because you can't find anything to back up your claim! I don't have to it is my opinion that the Conn Smythe is the more Prestigious award.

Plus did you just say that in order to win the Hart you have to be exceptional for 82 games, are you sure every winner has played 82 games, oh wait that must be why Lids wasn't a final 3 candidate, because he didn't play 82 games.

Lids is a better Hockey player and had a better all around season than both Z and AO, yet he was what 4th 5th in the voting and that is damn high for a defenseman.

How many times in the past 15 years have the Ross and Hart trophy winners been the same person?

IMO, you can win 10 hart trophies in a row and not make the playoffs once, the next year not get a whiff of the Hart and win the Conn Smythe and I would think that one Conn Smythe would mean a hell of a lot more and thus be more prestigious.

You can be the best player for a season, and your team doesn't get a sniff of the championship, therefore you are automatically eliminated from the Conn Smythe Discussion, hell you can be the Hart winner and make the playoffs and not make it out of the first round and you get NO consideration, that is what makes it harder to win and what makes it more prestigious. You can't just be the sexy name, or the gaudy numbers guy and win it, you have to be a standout great player on a great team.

This years Hart winner does not stop Sidney Crosby from scoring on a 5-3 next to the net, do you know why, because he is on the bench! However that play made had a huge role in deciding who the Conn Smythe winner is!

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

On one hand regular season success means nothing compared to post season success

A players success is almost entirely contingent on his regular performance. Play well, and help your team get to the playoffs. From there, a whole lot of luck, bounces, and special performances from guys named Franzen, Helm, Hudler, etc. help your team win it all.

So the argument that the regular season means nothing is patently false.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Go read a book or the internet? Why because you can't find anything to back up your claim! I don't have to it is my opinion that the Conn Smythe is the more Prestigious award.

"I don't have to back up my claims with anything remotely resembling facts, credible opinions or cited sources. Why? f*** YOU, THAT'S WHY! THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!"

Christ almighty, the rest of that post is painful to read.

[Opie 308]

You don't even have to try very hard to list example upon example...

Franzen could easily have won the Conn Smythe this year if he had not missed almost an entire round.

Yeah and had he continued his play he would have had one of the best playoff seasons in the history of the game, and if that was the case, he would have deserved the Conn Smythe, and to me that would be more prestigious than winning the Hart.

Big deal, you had the best regular season of all time, when compared to you had the best post season of all time!!!

Hmm I still want the post season award.

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom is considered one of the best defensemen ever mainly because of his Norrises... not because of his one Conn Smythe.

Neidermayer has a Conn Smythe as well.

[Opie 308]

"I don't have to back up my claims with anything remotely resembling facts, credible opinions or cited sources. Why? f*** YOU, THAT'S WHY! THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!"

Christ almighty, the rest of that post is painful to read.

Excuse me, I am the one defending my opinion, not trying to change yours!

If my posts are painful to read, Don't!!!!

[Reds4Life 51]

Yeah and had he continued his play he would have had one of the best playoff seasons in the history of the game, and if that was the case, he would have deserved the Conn Smythe, and to me that would be more prestigious than winning the Hart.

Big deal, you had the best regular season of all time, when compared to you had the best post season of all time!!!

Hmm I still want the post season award.

ROFLMAO this is so ridiculous

Hart trophy..you know the thing.. is the most prestigious award hockey player can get. That is a fact.

[egroen 384]

Hmm I still want the post season award.

Hey, I agree!

That's why the Conn Smythe is more "rewarding", for all it encompasses -- most likey you won the Cup as well.

But no one is going to look back at history and say "Hmmm... Cam Ward has a Conn Smythe. He must be better than Hasek." The Conn Smythe alone is just not nearly as "prestigious".

Edited June 13, 2008 by egroen

[Opie 308]

Lidstrom is considered one of the best defensemen ever mainly because of his Norrises... not because of his one Conn Smythe.

Neidermayer has a Conn Smythe as well.

What in the hell is your point Jim Carrey has a Vezina!

Neidermayer also has a Norris, Pronger has a Hart which defenseman of the three would you rather have!

My point in bringing up Lids is that he was not even in the final 3 of the Hart, are you trying to tell me he is not top 3 players in the league!

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Yeah and had he continued his play he would have had one of the best playoff seasons in the history of the game, and if that was the case, he would have deserved the Conn Smythe, and to me that would be more prestigious than winning the Hart.

Big deal, you had the best regular season of all time, when compared to you had the best post season of all time!!!

Hmm I still want the post season award.

It is impossible to argue against this sort of stubbornness. I commend you for sticking to your convictions, regardless. But man, I beg you, pull back the shades and take sports for what they are.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I'll bet if you asked any player which trophy they'd rather have - Smythe or Hart, but not both - the vast majority would take the Smythe every time.

[Reds4Life 51]

I'll bet if you asked any player which trophy they'd rather have - Smythe or Hart, but not both - the vast majority would take the Smythe every time.

Of course. But that does not change the fact that Hart tropy is the most prestigious trophy player can get.

I don't understand why some people do not get it..look up word 'prestigious' if you do not understand what it means.

...The oldest and most prestigious individual award in hockey...

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...s=A1ARTA0003615

[Wingman 0]

It comes down to what trophy a player would rather win during a season...regardless of whether his team will or will not make the playoffs. I *think* most would say Conn Smythe, since it's awarded to whoever performs best under the most pressure and intensity, when it matters the most. Making the Conn Smythe the most prestigious trophy for the players.

Say Malkin would have won the Hart this year, don't you think he'd trade that for a Conn Smythe-worthy performance during the playoffs?

[digitaljohn88 4]

In my opinion, the Hart is more prestigious... but multiple Conn Smythes with no Harts beats out multiple Harts with no Conn Smythes.

[egroen 384]

What in the hell is your point Jim Carrey has a Vezina!

He will forever be remembered as a better goalie than Cam Ward and his Conn Smythe.

Neidermayer also has a Norris, Pronger has a Hart which defenseman of the three would you rather have!

My point in bringing up Lids is that he was not even in the final 3 of the Hart, are you trying to tell me he is not top 3 players in the league!

Pronger was pretty much immortalized for that one frickin' year... believe me, it galls me to know end he won it. But looking over the results for other years, he is incredibly inconsistent and clearly benefited from one of the most low scoring years ever to win that Hart (barely).

Meanwhile, Lidstrom has amassed 6 Norrises, despite Pronger's one great year.

People are actually able to take these things into context.

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

I'll bet if you asked any player which trophy they'd rather have - Smythe or Hart, but not both - the vast majority would take the Smythe every time.

That's because the Smythe usually comes with the Cup, which is what every player really wants. But the chances of ever winning one are extremely remote - and the discussion was about prestige, which history has bestowed the Hart as - the most prestigious trophy in the sport, after the Cup. And based on the history of Hart winners, it's impossible to argue against it. Nobody cares about the damn Smythe. Just talk to Cam Ward about it.

Maybe everybody should stop playing the regular season, hold a raffle for the 16 teams in the playoffs, that way we can forget about the 'meaningless' regular season and just focus on what's REALLY important - a small sample size of games played in April and May.

[Reds4Life 51]

It comes down to what trophy a player would rather win during a season...regardless of whether his team will or will not make the playoffs. I *think* most would say Conn Smythe, since it's awarded to whoever performs best under the most pressure and intensity, when it matters the most. Making the Conn Smythe the most prestigious trophy for the players.

Say Malkin would have won the Hart this year, don't you think he'd trade that for a Conn Smythe-worthy performance during the playoffs?

Ok let's try simple math..maybe it will help some folks.

There are 30 teams in the NHL, each team has +-25 players..that means more than 700 players (750). Each end every player has chance to win Hart trophy.

Now playoffs..you only have 16 teams..then 2 teams in the finals. Only one team wins it all..

so one of the 25 players (yes few exceptions..like Giguere in 03) gets the Conn Smythe.

You need to play for the best team..and one player can only do so much. You need to be lucky to be on that team..and even if the Conn Smythe winner happens to be the best player on the team (not every winner was the best player though) you needed other players to be better than the players from the other team..

Conn Smythe is not even close to Hart when it comes to prestige.

[Opie 308]

It is impossible to argue against this sort of stubbornness. I commend you for sticking to your convictions, regardless. But man, I beg you, pull back the shades and take sports for what they are.

IT IS AN OPINION BASED THREAD, I AM STATING MY OPINION YOU DISAGREE FINE!!!

I am not going to change my opinion because of something you write on a discussion board.

I have watched sports and played them for the better part of my 31 years of life, I have watched awards that were once given to the best player morph into awards based on offensive out put!

In the 70's the Hart would have been at the top of my list, however IN MY OPINION, the state of the award is that it is given to the best offensive player and once in a great while it is given to a goalie who absolutely owns the league. Much like Arod being the MVP on the last placed team.

Didn't one of your quotes that was supposed to be an ouch and hurt me, say that the most prestigious award was retired?