Salvador re signs.....Thank God for lilypads!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Lilja isn't a good comparison because he plays bottom pairing minutes against the oppositions' bottom lines. Salvador plays mid to top lines night-in and night-out. If we're going to compare Lilja to Salvador, their +/- speaks volumes.

I completely disagree. See my post above this one.

Absolutely not. My contention is that Salvador played the majority of his season on a vastly inferior defensive team than the Wings, against better lines and finished with a better +/- than Lilja.

If you eliminate Lilja's mistakes, plus what he probably could make on the open market 1.2 is underpayment for Lilja. Salvador may be overpaid slightly, but IMO it isn't as ridiculous as you seem to think it is.

Also, lets not exaggerate about 1/3 of Salvador's salary being equal to Lilja's. It's closer to 1/2 than it is to 1/3

First of all, he's not a $3 million player, he's a $2.9 million dollar player. Yes, he's slightly overpaid, but when you factor in more than just stats, his salary isn't that ridiculous.

It's no different than people on the outside who looks at Drapers' numbers and wonder what the hell Kenny was thinking when he signed him to that deal some years ago. We all know what Draper brings to the table, because we see it every day. If you just look at Salvador's stats, it obviously makes you think otherwise, but if you watch him play his salary isn't too inflated.

That's where we differ then. I've seen plenty of Salvador for years. Don't need his stats, just used them to back up my argument. I don't think he's that good.

But Jeff Finger just got 3.5 million so what the f*** do I know?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yes, he's a hard hitting, tough player. But he's also weak in alot of areas, in not very good with the puck, doesn't have a great shot, can't carry the puck and is basically a stay at home player.

Is that the going rate for a player of his ilk? 3 milliion?

Can you explain why he got double the salary? What did he do all of a sudden to take him from a 1.5 to 2.9?

We all watched him with St.Louis. He was terrible. The only noticeable thing he ever did was try to pick fights on us after Jackman, Low, Mayers, Drake, Hinote, Walker and everyone else on the Blues got kicked out of the game for trying to pick fights with us.

And his playoff ice time decreased by 2 MINUTES! The other 4 guys above him all played over 20 minutes per night in the playoffs, he played under 18:00. They cut his ice time in the crucial part of the season and then gave him a raise? Doesn't make sense to me.

Like I said, his playoff ice time, along with that of his regular season ice time and overall contributions on the ice put him squarely as a #5 defenseman, maybe even 6. Luckily for him the Devs are so s***ty on D he actually can play as much as he does.

Oh well, its not a big deal. I like his style as a player. I just don't think he's worth anywhere near that kind of bank. I've seen him play plenty of hockey and he's not that good. I think he's a decent 3rd pairing guy worthy of 3rd pairing money. Frankly, i'm shocked by his contract and don't think he's worth more than 1.8-2.0 mil on any other team in the league.

At least we don't have to pay him!

TBH, I'm not saying that Salvador is great, or that he isn't slightly overpaid, but I just don't feel its as ridiculous as you seem to. The cap has gone up, and everyone's price has gone with it. Perhaps its a little bit of an overpayment but it isn't a ton.

The guy is much better than Lilja and deserves to be making more accordingly.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

TBH, I'm not saying that Salvador is great, or that he isn't slightly overpaid, but I just don't feel its as ridiculous as you seem to. The cap has gone up, and everyone's price has gone with it. Perhaps its a little bit of an overpayment but it isn't a ton.

The guy is much better than Lilja and deserves to be making more accordingly.

That's the heart of it.

holy hell can you imagine if Lilja we're playing 2nd line minutes next season?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said here. The only thing I take issue with is using Lilja as a reference point for salary, because I think there is a decent gap between the two. Yes Salvador's icetime decreased in the playoffs, but consider Lilja, who was a healthy scratch for half the playoffs. And when he did play he averaged about 12 minutes a game instead of the 18 he played in the regular season.

He's a 7th D-man, at best.

As for Salvador being overpaid, I agree, that is quite a raise. It sounds like he'll be 2nd pairing next year in Jersey, which I guess justifies the salary a bit, but still. Though I generally think D-men get paid a premium (outside of Detroit anyway).

The reason I used Lilja is b/c after watching both play for years, there aren't many differences IMO. If you watch Salvador, he's not that good frankly. Is he better than Lilja? Probably.

But if you put Salvador on the Wings he'd get Lilja or Lebda type minutes is my guess. And if you put Lilja on the Devs he'd probably be in that 18 to 19 minute range like the rest of their corps.

I watched the Devs playoff series. They were awful and to NFM, Salvador did not play against the top 2 lines of the opposition very much. There's a reason why their 2 best guys, Oduya and Martin, who had numbers that blew away Salvador's in the regular season had atrocious +/- in the playoffs while Salvador was a +1. It's because they played against the best players and got toasted. Salvador saw reduced time and didn't play much against the top 2 lines.

He's a #5 NHL defensman. Fortunately for him he plays for the weak Devs D which makes him a #4 guy. He's not a legit 2nd pairing guy. Wings fans would barf if this guy was on our 2nd line. At least I would.

But as I just pointed out with the Finger comment, and I agree with Harold, dmen are getting a premium. The Finger signing makes the Salvador signing seem not so crazy. I still think it's overpayment but league-wide, perhaps it fits the salary range for a player like him. crazy

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

That's the scary thing, Lilja probably could've gotten more outside of Detroit.

A bottom pairing guy who blocks shot and kills penalties. Who knows what another team would be willing to pay for that, but I bet it'd be more than we signed Lillypads for.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

That's the heart of it.

holy hell can you imagine if Lilja we're playing 2nd line minutes next season?

You mean like two years ago?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

The reason I used Lilja is b/c after watching both play for years, there aren't many differences IMO. If you watch Salvador, he's not that good frankly. Is he better than Lilja? Probably.

But if you put Salvador on the Wings he'd get Lilja or Lebda type minutes is my guess. And if you put Lilja on the Devs he'd probably be in that 18 to 19 minute range like the rest of their corps.

I watched the Devs playoff series. They were awful and to NFM, Salvador did not play against the top 2 lines of the opposition very much. There's a reason why their 2 best guys, Oduya and Martin, who had numbers that blew away Salvador's in the regular season had atrocious +/- in the playoffs while Salvador was a +1. It's because they played against the best players and got toasted. Salvador saw reduced time and didn't play much against the top 2 lines.

He's a #5 NHL defensman. Fortunately for him he plays for the weak Devs D which makes him a #4 guy. He's not a legit 2nd pairing guy. Wings fans would barf if this guy was on our 2nd line. At least I would.

But as I just pointed out with the Finger comment, and I agree with Harold, dmen are getting a premium. The Finger signing makes the Salvador signing seem not so crazy. I still think it's overpayment but league-wide, perhaps it fits the salary range for a player like him. crazy

But he's not on the Wings. That's the point.

The Wings are the deepest defensive team in the NHL, and every other team would kill to have what Detroit has on the blue line. Instead they have to make due the best they can with whats available. Not every team can have Lidstrom for an incredible home-town discount, Kronwall for now what looks like a steal, a happy-to-be home Rafalski and now Stuart at a bargain.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

TBH, I'm not saying that Salvador is great, or that he isn't slightly overpaid, but I just don't feel its as ridiculous as you seem to. The cap has gone up, and everyone's price has gone with it. Perhaps its a little bit of an overpayment but it isn't a ton.

The guy is much better than Lilja and deserves to be making more accordingly.

Hey, check this out, somebody agrees with me. Now, in internet terms, doesn't this mean I win decisively?

(of importance would be the career potential comments)

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/Bryce_Salvador

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/Andreas_Lilja

I think by them saying top 6 for Lilja and 5-6 for Salvador, that they concur with my comments that he's "probably" better than Lilja.

To say he's "much better" is ludicrous speed

ugghhh.....look at that injury history. Didn't know that about him

Of course mad props need to be given to Lou since he traded a pretty worthless thug in Cam Janssen for a legit NHL dman. That was a good move.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

That's the scary thing, Lilja probably could've gotten more outside of Detroit.

A bottom pairing guy who blocks shot and kills penalties. Who knows what another team would be willing to pay for that, but I bet it'd be more than we signed Lillypads for.

Which could mean 2 things

1. Salvador's contract isn't that ridiculous

or

2. That Salvador isn't "much better" than Lilja

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

But he's not on the Wings. That's the point.

The Wings are the deepest defensive team in the NHL, and every other team would kill to have what Detroit has on the blue line. Instead they have to make due the best they can with whats available. Not every team can have Lidstrom for an incredible home-town discount, Kronwall for now what looks like a steal, a happy-to-be home Rafalski and now Stuart at a bargain.

I agree and that's my point.

Given the weakness of the Devs D it may appear that Salvador is a top 4 and therefore, "much better" than Lilja.

take away which teams they play for, man them up and look at their abilities and flaws and assets and you have 2 very similar players. Salvy is meaner but Lilja is smarter with the puck. Not lidstrom smart with it but still better with it.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You mean like two years ago?

Ssshhh! I blocked that part out of my mind.

Was he really 2nd line though? I guess he did become it when Kronwall was out.

*shudders*

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I agree and that's my point.

Given the weakness of the Devs D it may appear that Salvador is a top 4 and therefore, "much better" than Lilja.

take away which teams they play for, man them up and look at their abilities and flaws and assets and you have 2 very similar players. Salvy is meaner but Lilja is smarter with the puck. Not lidstrom smart with it but still better with it.

Given the weakness of the Devils and the Blues D he still put up a +12, which is my point.

Look, I know what you're saying, but I just don't think he's overpaid a gross amount like you do. Good debate, but I think we'll have to end it there.

Cheers, NFM#25

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Ssshhh! I blocked that part out of my mind.

Was he really 2nd line though? I guess he did become it when Kronwall was out.

*shudders*

You're forgetting Fisch going down as well earlier in the season. Kronwall didn't go down until later than that even.

[norrisnick 1]

You mean like two years ago?

When he finished +18 and his partner won the Norris?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

When he finished +18 and his partner won the Norris?

Hey, I wasn't ripping. Just stating that there was a time that Lilja played top-line minutes.

Lilja's great in his role. I've said that over and over.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Given the weakness of the Devils and the Blues D he still put up a +12, which is my point.

Look, I know what you're saying, but I just don't think he's overpaid a gross amount like you do. Good debate, but I think we'll have to end it there.

Cheers, NFM#25

Given Finger's contract I am inclined to agree with you.

It appears the NHL dmen are once again getting a premium. Whether or not 3 mil is too much is a matter of opinion anymore as apparently it is becoming the norm for lower level dmen in the 4-5 range.

yikes

I like the 2 guys we have earning their 3 point whatever salaries. I'll take Stuey and Kronner over Lilja and Salvador any day of the week.

[norrisnick 1]

Finger (who?) getting $3.5M/yr doesn't mean Salvador isn't overpaid. It just means he's not the most overpaid guy out there. Bryce getting $2M would have been a stretch. $2.9M/yr is stupid.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

When he finished +18 and his partner won the Norris?

I'm not sure what the Norris has to do with anything.

The only way Lilja contributed to Lidstrom's Norris win was because people could look at Lid's stats and say "and think about who he was paired with!" You could pair me with Lidstrom and he'd still win the Norris, and I'd probably finish the season +10 just by standing there with Lidstrom on the ice.

Lilja is effective in his role. 2nd liner is not that role.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Finger (who?) getting $3.5M/yr doesn't mean Salvador isn't overpaid. It just means he's not the most overpaid guy out there. Bryce getting $2M would have been a stretch. $2.9M/yr is stupid.

Nick, I am in total agreement with you. I too said that I thought Salvador should be a 1.8 to 2.0 max guy. I firmly believe he's overpaid in my mind b/c he's just not that good.

But as more of these deals come in it appears the going rate for these guys is in fact up in the 3 mil area.

I have said it twice already

YIKES!

[Opie 308]

This really makes me wonder what Stuart could have got on the open market, seriously he is a hell of a lot better than Finger or Salvador.