Guest CaliWingsNut Report post Posted September 21, 2008 4 in the top 15 and no one else.... Osgood? Raffy? Mule? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jawbreaker 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Actually strange list in my opinion. If Zetterberg is #1, then how the hell Datsyuk can be only #9. In my eyes they are pretty even, if I absolutely have to choose between them, I would give slight edge to Datsyuk. Datsyuk has been our leading scorer for 3 seasons (yes, Z has been hurt, but being on the IR doesn't give your team extra points, and doesn't make you more valuable). This is old saying, that Z's defense is better is IMHO silly. Based on what? I would say, that Zetterberg, and Datsyuk do all the things equally good, and when they are doing this together, then it becomes beyond magic. I would give Dats the edge 'cos he has better health, and is more fun to watch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) Pretty impressive, Zetterberg was ranked 29th last year, now number 1 hehe. Edited September 21, 2008 by mindfly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 did not see this posted, if it is sry. thought it was pretty sweet that he is getting his do! Zetts #1 Wait a minute. Where's OMG Hossa. Oh, there he is at #14. Didn't they consult LGW on this... (sarcasm) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b.shanafan14 733 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 The argument 'Dats is more physical than Hank' would not exist if the Wings had lost to the Stars, and Dats had never had the opportunity to punch Gary Roberts in the Cup Finals. In other words, it's an argument that is hugely based off one incident. Until this past playoff run, Zetterberg was considered the more physical player. Zetterberg is the best all-around forward in the NHL. Datsyuk is probably second on the list. Datsyuk is more physical than Hank in the hit department. Pav was leading the Wings in hits before the Finals, probably ended up leading the team in the playoffs since he continued and maybe even stepped it up in the Finals. I don't think many, if any body, would base physicality off one scuffle. As far as Datsyuk and Zetterberg are concerned, I view them as equals and I almost feel that all the press from Hank's incredible playoff performance has created a separation that really isn't there. Was Z our best player in the post-season? Hell yes. Is Z almost a lock for team captain after Lidstrom? Yes. But is Hank really that much better the Pav? I don't think so myself. Taking their ages into consideration, 27 year old Hank > 27 year old Pav, but they past year, Pav stayed healthy and lead the Wings in scoring for I believe the 4th season straight, while at the same time leading the league in plus/minus and won another Lady Byng for his ability to do what he does on the ice without taking penalties. That said, I think Hank sees more PK time than Pav by a slight margin and maybe takes more draws. But then again, Pav also broke his own record for most takeaways in a season and set one so sick that I don't see it being broken anytime soon. At the end of the day, one has something over the other and I think they are 1a and 1b for best all-around players in the world, I don't think anyone comes close in the two-way department. I'm glad Hank is getting the press he deserves and everyone got to see him and Pav dominate Crosby and Malkin in the Finals the way they did, but I guess I would like to see Pav get equal consideration, seeing how he was 4th in scoring in the league last season while leading the league in plus/minus, and had a great playoff run and not disappearing in the finals like Malkin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b.shanafan14 733 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Am I really the first to mention Rafalski's undeserving absence? Nice to see Wing players ranked so high, but to see so much of these players in it aside from B-Raf really makes me cringe. I'm a big Rafalski appreciator, even back to his time in NJ. Always liked the way he played and thought he would fit PERFECT with the Wings. So last summer when we got him I almost sharted. But since he has been a Wing he has gotten less and less credit. Its the playing with Lidstrom factor, obviously its there, but it doesn't mean you dismiss the guy. Like last All-Star game, at the time Rafalski was second to only Lidstrom in D-man points and plus/minus, but they throw a laundry list of big names who were struggling at the time and good but not great defenseman from scrub teams to fill the bill. Only when they were struggling to fill the spot did they finally invite Rafalski like a week or so before the game when he already had plans with his family. I guess I don't understand how a guy sets a career high points on a team like NJ and its great, and then matches the career high, and sets new high for goals on the Red Wings, and now he is decent? I like you want to see some more Rafalski love from the pundents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Datsyuk is more physical than Hank in the hit department. Pav was leading the Wings in hits before the Finals, probably ended up leading the team in the playoffs since he continued and maybe even stepped it up in the Finals. I don't think many, if any body, would base physicality off one scuffle. As far as Datsyuk and Zetterberg are concerned, I view them as equals and I almost feel that all the press from Hank's incredible playoff performance has created a separation that really isn't there. Was Z our best player in the post-season? Hell yes. Is Z almost a lock for team captain after Lidstrom? Yes. But is Hank really that much better the Pav? I don't think so myself. Taking their ages into consideration, 27 year old Hank > 27 year old Pav, but they past year, Pav stayed healthy and lead the Wings in scoring for I believe the 4th season straight, while at the same time leading the league in plus/minus and won another Lady Byng for his ability to do what he does on the ice without taking penalties. That said, I think Hank sees more PK time than Pav by a slight margin and maybe takes more draws. But then again, Pav also broke his own record for most takeaways in a season and set one so sick that I don't see it being broken anytime soon. At the end of the day, one has something over the other and I think they are 1a and 1b for best all-around players in the world, I don't think anyone comes close in the two-way department. I'm glad Hank is getting the press he deserves and everyone got to see him and Pav dominate Crosby and Malkin in the Finals the way they did, but I guess I would like to see Pav get equal consideration, seeing how he was 4th in scoring in the league last season while leading the league in plus/minus, and had a great playoff run and not disappearing in the finals like Malkin. It's like I always say...they are very similar level players, and very close. Hank has a clear edge in goal scoring, Dats has a clear edge in playmaking, and other than that they are very close in most skills. They may go about it differently, which results in some of the debates, but the overall effectiveness is a similar level. But neither of them is the best player in the world or on the team. The best player in the world right now is Nick Lidstrom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Someone should post this article on letsgopens.com. Then we could hear some SERIOUS whining. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 It's like I always say...they are very similar level players, and very close. Hank has a clear edge in goal scoring, Dats has a clear edge in playmaking, and other than that they are very close in most skills. They may go about it differently, which results in some of the debates, but the overall effectiveness is a similar level. But neither of them is the best player in the world or on the team. The best player in the world right now is Nick Lidstrom. I agree, but like someone said earlier it's hard to compare d-men and forwards. The list could have been divided in two and had a forward and a d-man category. Lidstrom is so far superior to any other d-man in the league it's not even funny. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 My point is that Dats as a physical player, regardless of the hits stat, was a sudden change in recognition that was recognized during the Cup finals; but it was a gradual change in his play. Zetterberg has typically been the one considered the more physical player. If not for the Roberts incident, it would likely still be the case because wouldn't have that defining moment that many people looked to where Dats 'said to Hell with the Lady Byng' and fought back. I think the two of them are basically even when it comes to physical play. Zetterberg was typically given the edge as a matter of bias against Russians more than anything else.[/font] How did you come up with that gem? The guy that they have as #2 is Russian. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 How did you come up with that gem? The guy that they have as #2 is Russian. Reading comprehension is a valuable skill. I suggest you acquire it. I was referring specifically to the physicality area, in terms of a bias against Russians, as hockey publications often seem to term Europeans, and Russians in particular, soft and non-physical, regardless of their actual play. Datsyuk tended to receive a double-whammy in this area as he has won the Lady Byng repeatedly, another thing that sometimes earned a player a label as 'soft' regardless of performance. The bias comment had nothing to do with rankings on the list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vincanni 1 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Not an expectional list in the least, I'm a huge Z fan but I think making him number one in the league might be a bit presumuous. Not too mention I don't see Rafalski's name anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Reading comprehension is a valuable skill. I suggest you acquire it. I was referring specifically to the physicality area, in terms of a bias against Russians, as hockey publications often seem to term Europeans, and Russians in particular, soft and non-physical, regardless of their actual play. Datsyuk tended to receive a double-whammy in this area as he has won the Lady Byng repeatedly, another thing that sometimes earned a player a label as 'soft' regardless of performance. The bias comment had nothing to do with rankings on the list. So now it's about who is considered more physical. Fine, let's discuss this. You seem to think that Dats is more Physical than Z but that he isn't given the credit. Ok. Let's see what this is based on. Well.... You must have a list where they are ranked right? That's what I thought Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dawgs 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Hank and Pavel play in all situations. They are the two best forwards in the NHL defensively. They both had nearly 100 pts last season and I believe Hank probably would have if he hadnt missed games. Crosby and Ovechkin dont kill penalties. They arent as defensively responsible as Hank and Pavel. If either Hank or Pavel were in Ovechkins role of being the only big scorer on thier team collecting 22 minutes per game they very probably could match those numbers Ovechkin puts up. Hands down in my opinion Hank and Pavel are 1 and 2 among forwards in the league. Thier game is just more complete and more evolved than either Crosby or Ovechkin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seraph 240 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Hank and Pavel play in all situations. They are the two best forwards in the NHL defensively. They both had nearly 100 pts last season and I believe Hank probably would have if he hadnt missed games. Crosby and Ovechkin dont kill penalties. They arent as defensively responsible as Hank and Pavel. If either Hank or Pavel were in Ovechkins role of being the only big scorer on thier team collecting 22 minutes per game they very probably could match those numbers Ovechkin puts up. Hands down in my opinion Hank and Pavel are 1 and 2 among forwards in the league. Thier game is just more complete and more evolved than either Crosby or Ovechkin. I agree with you actually. But I'll play devil's advocate. Couldn't you say that Crosby and Ovechkin play a different kind of game overall? Couldn't their offensive/playmaking abilities outweigh the "completeness" of Dats/Z's game? Just because they take on a different role doesn't mean they're worse. They are just playing in a different system. It could be like saying they are worse players because their defense isn't as good as Lidstrom's. Well, Lidstrom is a defenseman. He has a different role. Same with Z and D. No one will argue with you about which player is more complete. But is one player's overall impact better than the other? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 chrisdetroit, Dude. Stop what you're doing, take a deep breath, remove the thorn from your side, take another deep breath, then take another deep breath and read. As for the list, I actually hadn't looked at the rest of it beyond the #3 spot. I agree: it's pretty s***ty, which is strange because he articulated his case for Hank as the #1 quite well. Ultimately, Nick Lidstrom is the best player in the world. But because that's a borderline cliché at this point, I'm fine with someone calling Hank #1 -- as long as Nick isn't behind, say, Ovechkin and Crosby as well. Like he is...here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 22, 2008 I agree with you actually. But I'll play devil's advocate. Couldn't you say that Crosby and Ovechkin play a different kind of game overall? Couldn't their offensive/playmaking abilities outweigh the "completeness" of Dats/Z's game? Just because they take on a different role doesn't mean they're worse. They are just playing in a different system. It could be like saying they are worse players because their defense isn't as good as Lidstrom's. Well, Lidstrom is a defenseman. He has a different role. Same with Z and D. No one will argue with you about which player is more complete. But is one player's overall impact better than the other? You could make that argument. However, Henrik Zetterberg is one of the league's top offensive players. He is also one of the league's top defensive players. The same can be said of teammates Pavel Datsyuk and Nicklas Lidstrom. All three are among the best at both ends of the ice. Crosby and Ovechkin are not among the league's best defensive players; they are far from it, in fact. It doesn't mean they couldn't become such; just that they aren't. However, the list isn't about potential; it's about current state. And in his current state, Nicklas Lidstrom is the league's top player, by far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
