We need totally some other players right now

[Slave 31]

doesn't mean you are right either, but i'll forgive you...but first you must say

"i love crepes"

and no z, d and h do not get free passes, out of all the bad plays i have seen this year those 3 have 3 of the biggest,

pav had 2 brutal giveaways in the pitsburgh game, hossa's play in the vancouver game at center ice was absolutely horrible and Z's attempted clear of the puck a couple games ago and his inability to dump it in and always attempt to 1 vs 4 it into the zone drive me crazy.

And I can imagine you think I am hugely biased towards Sammy based on some personal vendetta against him but I am not, I told you my opinion as a fan, that i think we would better off without him. If you must know my personal guy to bag on is Rafalski, at least 1 time a game..go back and watch the games he is caught so far out of position on either a bad pinch or a mishandled puck on the blueline that the other team gets an oddman rush...and you know what? I actually wait for it now and do not consider it a legitimate game until it happens.

Either way, I am not a Gm or a coach of this team, I am a fan, our team is the defending SC champs and if we can play the rest of the season like we can (like we did against anaheim last night) we will be champs again in june. As afan I feel I am entitled to have an opionion on the team and it's players.

You know my opinion on Sammy, if you need stats and figures to back up everything you see/hear/read i guess you are SOL when dealing with me. sorry.

remember..

"I LOVE CREPES"

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

doesn't mean you are right either, but i'll forgive you...but first you must say

"i love crepes"

and no z, d and h do not get free passes, out of all the bad plays i have seen this year those 3 have 3 of the biggest,

pav had 2 brutal giveaways in the pitsburgh game, hossa's play in the vancouver game at center ice was absolutely horrible and Z's attempted clear of the puck a couple games ago and his inability to dump it in and always attempt to 1 vs 4 it into the zone drive me crazy.

And I can imagine you think I am hugely biased towards Sammy based on some personal vendetta against him but I am not, I told you my opinion as a fan, that i think we would better off without him. If you must know my personal guy to bag on is Rafalski, at least 1 time a game..go back and watch the games he is caught so far out of position on either a bad pinch or a mishandled puck on the blueline that the other team gets an oddman rush...and you know what? I actually wait for it now and do not consider it a legitimate game until it happens.

Either way, I am not a Gm or a coach of this team, I am a fan, our team is the defending SC champs and if we can play the rest of the season like we can (like we did against anaheim last night) we will be champs again in june. As afan I feel I am entitled to have an opionion on the team and it's players.

You know my opinion on Sammy, if you need stats and figures to back up everything you see/hear/read i guess you are SOL when dealing with me. sorry.

remember..

"I LOVE CREPES"

I most certainly don't need stats and figures to back up things I hear unless I don't believe them to be true....hence why I questioned you or others that rag on Sammy. Rafalski I agree has been brutal this season for his salary, but its hard for me to lump Sammy into that category based on his production and his paycheck.

Nobody gets a free pass from me either and I'll let any Red Wing know they've made a bonehead play when they make one (I.E. what I just said about Z's boneheaded clearing attempt late in the third), but I'm not about to rag on a guy that has been producing for the amount of money he makes in a league where guys like Sammy are required to fill out your roster.

Sidenote: Nicely done on the Ricky Bobby movie line.....but I won't say it either.

[Slave 31]

fair enough, and I understand that we need the bottom of the payscale roleplayers to make a championship team, I am pleasantly surprised with the offensive numbers sammy has been putting up, on the other hand and maybe i am being too hard on him or looking for his bad plays more then i am looking for his good but to be he just seems to not playing as hard as he can, i mean, if you have horrible aim (and in his defense lots of players miss the net) spend a few minutes extra after practice just shooting pucks, or if you are a little slower then practice sprints, I do not expect him to be the next gretzky or lemieux i just want him to show more hussle out there, to work harder, i am not expecting him to get 100+ points and be a hart finalist i just expect him to backcheck as hard as everyone else on the team; and while this is totally subjective i guess i just do not see it from him so far this season.

[therock48880 14]

I'm thinking the either Leino or Helm could do as good and possibly better for less then 1.2 mill. On our current roster though he has earned the spot this year I guess. It should be occupied by Hudler or Filppula but both were a bust on that line. Wow, I hate to say but perhaps Sammy at 1.2 mill is a better choice the Filppula at 3.5 mill. Filppula should have taken my advice for the off season and invested in a nice cycle of DecaDurobolin and a Gold's gym membership... he is currently not worth what he is being paid.

I couldn't agree more. It's funny how the Sammy supporters are all over right now. However, he has always been VERY streaky and we'll see where they are when he goes 25 games and scores 2 points. I also love the "he has experience" argument. Yes, he has more experience than Leino or Helm but EVERYONE in the nhl was inexperienced at some point in their careers.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

fair enough, and I understand that we need the bottom of the payscale roleplayers to make a championship team, I am pleasantly surprised with the offensive numbers sammy has been putting up, on the other hand and maybe i am being too hard on him or looking for his bad plays more then i am looking for his good but to be he just seems to not playing as hard as he can, i mean, if you have horrible aim (and in his defense lots of players miss the net) spend a few minutes extra after practice just shooting pucks, or if you are a little slower then practice sprints, I do not expect him to be the next gretzky or lemieux i just want him to show more hussle out there, to work harder, i am not expecting him to get 100+ points and be a hart finalist i just expect him to backcheck as hard as everyone else on the team; and while this is totally subjective i guess i just do not see it from him so far this season.

Subjective is the key word. You and I just don't see it the same but I can appreciate that. Not everyone is going to see things the same or this board would be awfully dull.

The fact of the matter is that all players have strengths and weaknesses....who's to say Sammy doesn't work on his downfalls after practice? Also, if Sammy was noticeably slow during gameplay I would like to think our Stanley Cup winning coach who prides himself and his team on work ethic would've mentioned it to him by now. My guess is he hasn't because Sammy skates up to his standards. Besides, I think this can go back to what I was saying about Sammy trying to read the play rather than it being him not skating hard.

Either way....I think this argument has run it course.

[therock48880 14]

Seriously....I'm done.

The only arguments being made are ones such as "I don't feel Sammy is has good as his numbers suggest" or "I find myself saying "What the F*ck Sammy!"

Great arguments. [/sarcasm]

Guess what, the numbers are indicative of his play. Yes, he has some garbage points....*who the f*** doesn't?* Once in a while I say, "What are you doing Sammy?" Guess what, I did that with Z last night on his bonehead clearing attempt. For the love of God people, there aren't any better proven options out there for $1.2 million and Kenny and Co need players like that to fill out the roster in a salary capped NHL.

This is not that complicated. Apparently it is....

Why does it have to be a "Proven option?" Sammy was unproven when he came to Detroit. Leino and Helm both have better upsides, imo.

[lets go pavel 2]

Why does it have to be a "Proven option?" Sammy was unproven when he came to Detroit. Leino and Helm both have better upsides, imo.

Okay, but right now Sammy is playing a good chunk of time on the 2nd line and mans the point on the PP ... I don't see Leino or Helm doing either of those fresh out of GR this year, just as Sammy didn't when he was new, or Pavel, or Hank, or Homer, or Franzen either for that matter. While you might think those 2 have more upside, if you're going to say there are better options out there as far as performance and budget go then you're going to need to give some quantifiable evidence, i.e., they should be proven.

[hockaholic 1]

We were horrible again against Bruins today. If you watched most of all our games, we had been totally awful on defense and goalie.

I think our offense had been good throughout this whole season so far even though they sometimes dont score that much, they've showed good performance

I know we are yet on only 22games this season and 60 more games are coming so we can fix this anytime between Dec and Jan.

But the thing is that this season may be the last season that Wings would be with Sammy, Kopecky, and other useless guys

Because we won the cup last season, Holland signed with Lilja and Stuart. I think Stuart can play better as he played last season. But especially the most problems are on goalie position, both Osgood and Conklin.

I saw some people say Conklin is good and he is good except for tonight's game.

But the thing is he will never be our first starting goaltender. I think now is the time for us to give Howard to start the game like Vancouver gives Sanford and Schenider opportunities to start games and gain experience.

For defense, I saw Lids got back on his play after he said he was out of a game. Rafalski is not really great on defense but he will get better and he produces some points. Kronwall, I think he is good but he should not make those turnovers that like today he gives Bruins the 3rd goal. But our last defense pair is a s***.

Lebda and Lilja are not stable at all and I felt never comfortable when they are on the ice with the line of Maltby Draper. In my view, Meech is playing way better than I expected.

After this season, whether we will do a good job in the playoff or not, we should kick Sammy, Kopecky, Maltby, Lebda, Lilja out if we can.

We need Leino to be on our line and Helm showed good performance when he was on ice.

Most important thing is that we should give Howard chances to start soon

We need totally like reform and like hire new teachers. Like this is not a joke... like our American school system is like pumping out morons. You know... like

[therock48880 14]

Okay, but right now Sammy is playing a good chunk of time on the 2nd line and mans the point on the PP ... I don't see Leino or Helm doing either of those fresh out of GR this year, just as Sammy didn't when he was new, or Pavel, or Hank, or Homer, or Franzen either for that matter. While you might think those 2 have more upside, if you're going to say there are better options out there as far as performance and budget go then you're going to need to give some quantifiable evidence, i.e., they should be proven.

True, but Franzen was "unproven" last year too until Homer got hurt. Could Leino turn out to be better than Sammy? Yup. Could he flop? Yup. Same with Helm. But to say that Sammy is the best, cheapest option out there when other options haven't been tried is silly, imo.

On a related note, one thing I HATE about the current CBA is how the waiver system works. Ideally, the best players in your organization would be playing on the nhl team when they're ready. I think Helm, Ericsson, and, to a lesser extent, Leino, have proven that isn't the case. Those three guys would be cheaper and possibly better than the players they replaced on the Wings. Yet, since they don't have to clear waivers, they are sent to the minors.

[therock48880 14]

We need totally like reform and like hire new teachers. Like this is not a joke... like our American school system is like pumping out morons. You know... like

I'm a teacher.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Why does it have to be a "Proven option?" Sammy was unproven when he came to Detroit. Leino and Helm both have better upsides, imo.

This isn't the New York Islanders. The Red Wings are once again a favorite to win the Cup and bringing in unproven guys like Leino or Helm (to a lesser extent) could likely hurt those chances. Besides, Helm doesn't even play close to the same type of role Sammy does. You're talking about bringing up a 4th line energy grinder to replace a guy that's been scoring consistently all season. That doesn't make much sense.

Helm for Maltby is a whole other ball game. Why aren't people calling him instead of a guy that's actually producing? Before anyone says, its because Sammy and Malltby have different roles on the team...what do you think I was just saying in regards to Helm and Sammy?

[therock48880 14]

This isn't the New York Islanders. The Red Wings are once again a favorite to win the Cup and bringing in unproven guys like Leino or Helm (to a lesser extent) could likely hurt those chances. Besides, Helm doesn't even play close to the same type of role Sammy does. You're talking about bringing up a 4th line energy grinder to replace a guy that's been scoring consistently all season. That doesn't make much sense.

Helm for Maltby is a whole other ball game. Why aren't people calling him instead of a guy that's actually producing? Before anyone says, its because Sammy and Malltby have different roles on the team...what do you think I was just saying in regards to Helm and Sammy?

Just because it's the Wings and they are the defending champs, doesn't mean they shouldn't try to improve. If they can upgrade, they should do it. Look, I'm not slamming Sammy in particular. He's playing well, RIGHT NOW. However, there isn't a player on the team that's more streaky than he is. This hot streak will inevitably be followed by a 15-20 game stretch of not doing much. We know what we are going to get from Sammy. We don't know what Helm and Leino could provide and since their upside is much better than Sammy's shouldn't they get a chance?

I agree with you about Maltby. I just hate the fact that a guy like Helm, who played extremely well last year in the playoffs, is relegated to the minors because of the stupid waiver system.

[Opie 308]

Just because it's the Wings and they are the defending champs, doesn't mean they shouldn't try to improve. If they can upgrade, they should do it. Look, I'm not slamming Sammy in particular. He's playing well, RIGHT NOW. However, there isn't a player on the team that's more streaky than he is. This hot streak will inevitably be followed by a 15-20 game stretch of not doing much. We know what we are going to get from Sammy. We don't know what Helm and Leino could provide and since their upside is much better than Sammy's shouldn't they get a chance?

I agree with you about Maltby. I just hate the fact that a guy like Helm, who played extremely well last year in the playoffs, is relegated to the minors because of the stupid waiver system.

There is no proof that any of those players are an upgrade to Sammy, what you are suggesting is that they get rid of a proven 35+ point guy in the NHL for a player who could put up 60 points or could put up 4.

If they knew Leino was an upgrade than maybe Sammy gets traded to make room for Cheli, otherwise he will probably be around because the wings and their org (you know the guys who see the players day in and day out) know what is an upgrade in the system to what they have.

You are want them to upgrade to Leino or Helm, but as easily as it could be an upgrade it could be a downgrade. Now if a guy like Michael Ryder was kicking around in the system maybe you have an argument, but what is in the system is a bunch of unknowns, you want a team that is driven by a Stanley cup or bust mentality to wager on a couple of unknowns one who has exactly 0 minutes of NHL ice time.

What is next you want Larsson in for Ozzie!!

[therock48880 14]

There is no proof that any of those players are an upgrade to Sammy, what you are suggesting is that they get rid of a proven 35+ point guy in the NHL for a player who could put up 60 points or could put up 4.

If they knew Leino was an upgrade than maybe Sammy gets traded to make room for Cheli, otherwise he will probably be around because the wings and their org (you know the guys who see the players day in and day out) know what is an upgrade in the system to what they have.

You are want them to upgrade to Leino or Helm, but as easily as it could be an upgrade it could be a downgrade. Now if a guy like Michael Ryder was kicking around in the system maybe you have an argument, but what is in the system is a bunch of unknowns, you want a team that is driven by a Stanley cup or bust mentality to wager on a couple of unknowns one who has exactly 0 minutes of NHL ice time.

What is next you want Larsson in for Ozzie!!

And there's no proof that they WON'T be a 35 point scorer either. I just keep reading about how "proven" Sammy is and I keep mentioning that Franzen was "unproven" also until he was given an expanded role. We'll never know what these kids can do until they get a chance. That's all I'm saying. This isn't a "bash Sammy" diatribe on my part, it's a "we need to see if these guys can improve the team" diatribe. Guys like Maltby and Sammy could be expendable if those two are ready for an expanded role. Look what the Pistons did when they realized Stuckey was ready to be the man. They traded a "proven" player so that Stuckey can take over next year. Helm proved last year that he is NHL ready and Mickey and Ken have both mentioned that on several occasions. The kid should NOT be in the minors. If that means giving up on a "proven" player, so be it. imo.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

And there's no proof that they WON'T be a 35 point scorer either.

Proving a negative...?

EDIT: I guess I should touch on the rest of this since it's kind of a dick move to jump on the one obvious flaw there and leave the rest alone.

From where I see it, if you move Sammy and bring in Leino, and he does score 40ish point, well congratulations, you just made a lateral move. Now instead of having both Sammy and Leino potentially on tap for next year with the Hossa/Franzen/Zetterberg situation as it is, you're down to one.

Of course, if he doesn't equal up to Sammy's place, now you've made a big mistake.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Just because it's the Wings and they are the defending champs, doesn't mean they shouldn't try to improve. If they can upgrade, they should do it.

Not only do I completely agree, never once did I say they shouldn't try to improve. Leino and Helm are not an upgrade over Sammy at this point. That's the fact of the matter.

He's playing well, RIGHT NOW. However, there isn't a player on the team that's more streaky than he is. This hot streak will inevitably be followed by a 15-20 game stretch of not doing much.

Why? Because you say it will be?

Sammy said he was told to shoot like crazy when he got here. Now that he's become more of a passer its not only helped the entire Wings team, its helped his game tremendously. Since he's gone this direction and had success the entire season thus far, what makes you think he'll revert back to the way he used to be directed to play?

We know what we are going to get from Sammy. We don't know what Helm and Leino could provide and since their upside is much better than Sammy's shouldn't they get a chance?

That's the thing...you don't know what we're going to get from Sammy since his game has changed this season. This isn't the same player that played the past few years for the Wings and he does look very different out there. He's not a star, but he's certainly playing great hockey for his calibre and who's to say it won't stick around if he doesn't revert back to his old style?

I agree with you about Maltby. I just hate the fact that a guy like Helm, who played extremely well last year in the playoffs, is relegated to the minors because of the stupid waiver system.

Then why take it out on Samueslsson? The things is you and I both know Helm would be much closer to filling the shoes of Maltby than he would Sammy. Helm's style of play is just like Maltby's but younger, more energetic, along with an even more solid forecheck.

[Louisville 112]

Why all the Brad McCrimmon hate?

Do you guys think he came in revamped everything about Detroit's defensive style of play? Or is he just an easy target?

Doesn't seem like there is much he could do to make the Wings play like they have.

[Opie 308]

And there's no proof that they WON'T be a 35 point scorer either. I just keep reading about how "proven" Sammy is and I keep mentioning that Franzen was "unproven" also until he was given an expanded role. We'll never know what these kids can do until they get a chance. That's all I'm saying. This isn't a "bash Sammy" diatribe on my part, it's a "we need to see if these guys can improve the team" diatribe. Guys like Maltby and Sammy could be expendable if those two are ready for an expanded role. Look what the Pistons did when they realized Stuckey was ready to be the man. They traded a "proven" player so that Stuckey can take over next year. Helm proved last year that he is NHL ready and Mickey and Ken have both mentioned that on several occasions. The kid should NOT be in the minors. If that means giving up on a "proven" player, so be it. imo.

Huge difference, Stuckey could be on the roster and never play more than 5 minutes and they can evaluate him, in Hockey especially on the Red Wings if you are on the active roster unless you are a fighter only you need to play at least 8-10 minutes and in Bball the coach can't put you in with a lead and take you out when behind. Two different sports and two completely different roster philosophies. That is like saying because Devin Hester was good at returning kicks and became a wide receiver that Leino should make the wings roster.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Opie