Sharks attribute success to Shelley's watchful Eye

[Frozen-Man 144]

Won Cups with guys like McCarty and LaPointe on his "fourth line", and Shanahan on his 1st/2nd. Point?

esteef

Exactly guys that could play the game well (30-50 point guys for Mac and LaPointe) and much more for Shanny. That was the point that Ken Holland was making - he wants to have guys where you can roll that 4th line. He wants them to be able to play more than 3-4 minutes a game. In fact in the article Ken Holland said he would love a guy that could do what those guys did but they are hard to find. As much as I like Downey he is not like any of those players and will not have the impact that they had.

[Johnny Law 15]

Name me one thing Kopecky is good at?

At least Downey is good at something, as you just mentioned.

Because Kopy makes over 50,000 and is on a one way he would have to go through re-entry waivers, someone will pick him up if Det has to pay half his salary.

[jvxp 0]

QFT

I change my mind. This is the greatest post ever.

And no Downey isnt just good at fightings. Hes good at creating energy, both on the ice and in the locker rooms, hitting and and letting our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at.

You are 100% correct!

[esteef 2,679]

You're right. Shanahan was only good for a couple of shifts a game because he had hands of stone and Lapointe was given $20 million by the Bruins to be a policeman.

How didn't I see it this way before?

Nice side-step. Did those players fight regularly? Yes or No. Please speak into the microphone.

esteef

[Frozen-Man 144]

QUOTE (uk_redwing @ December 17, 2008 - 04:42PM) *

QFT

I change my mind. This is the greatest post ever.

And no Downey isnt just good at fightings. Hes good at creating energy, both on the ice and in the locker rooms, hitting and and letting our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at.

You are 100% correct!

Because Lids didn't get run at during the Colorado game last season when Downey was on the team. I like Downey on the team but our skilled guys still got run at with him there last year he did not change that.

[jvxp 0]

QUOTE (uk_redwing @ December 17, 2008 - 04:42PM) *

QFT

I change my mind. This is the greatest post ever.

And no Downey isnt just good at fightings. Hes good at creating energy, both on the ice and in the locker rooms, hitting and and letting our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at.

Because Lids didn't get run at during the Colorado game last season when Downey was on the team. I like Downey on the team but our skilled guys still got run at with him there last year he did not change that.

Wrong. Were getting run more this year and punched after the play stops.

[esteef 2,679]

Exactly guys that could play the game well (30-50 point guys for Mac and LaPointe) and much more for Shanny. That was the point that Ken Holland was making - he wants to have guys where you can roll that 4th line. He wants them to be able to play more than 3-4 minutes a game. In fact in the article Ken Holland said he would love a guy that could do what those guys did but they are hard to find. As much as I like Downey he is not like any of those players and will not have the impact that they had.

Ken Holland was giving the reporter lip service. If those guys are so hard to find, how the hell does every other team keep finding them? Lucic, Carcillo, Boll, Clarkson, etc, etc....

Downey had a great impact last year which was confirmed by the players in the media more than once. Again, If fighting is so insignificant to the game or "winning" why does every team still use one (or more) to this day?

esteef

[jvxp 0]

Ken Holland was giving the reporter lip service. If those guys are so hard to find, how the hell does every other team keep finding them? Lucic, Carcillo, Boll, Clarkson, etc, etc....

Downey had a great impact last year which was confirmed by the players in the media more than once. Again, If fighting is so insignificant to the game or "winning" why does every team still use one (or more) to this day?

esteef

Your right! Why cant people see this? Do they not know how to read or watch tv to hear what players are saying? (last year)

[Frozen-Man 144]

Wrong. Were getting run more this year and punched after the play stops.

Yeah we are, but not that much more. My point is that Downey did not prevent Lids and other guys from getting run at last year. The claim wasn't that Downey reduced the number of skilled Wings players getting run at but rather that when Downey is there our skill players don't have to worry about getting run at. But based upon last year . . . they obviously do, maybe not as much but they still do. If guys didn't have to worry about getting run at - what happened to Lids in that game?

[esteef 2,679]

QUOTE (uk_redwing @ December 17, 2008 - 04:42PM) *

Because Lids didn't get run at during the Colorado game last season when Downey was on the team. I like Downey on the team but our skilled guys still got run at with him there last year he did not change that.

For the ONE-MILLIONTh TIME! No one says fighters/enforcers COMPLETELY STOP all cheap shots from happening. They DO deter more of that s*** from happening from lesser douchebag players. The point of having them is for response, team morale, momentum, etc. Just ask ANY GM, coach or player.

esteef

Edited December 17, 2008 by esteef

[skacore 2]

Yeah we are, but not that much more. My point is that Downey did not prevent Lids and other guys from getting run at last year. The claim wasn't that Downey reduced the number of skilled Wings players getting run at but rather that when Downey is there our skill players don't have to worry about getting run at. But based upon last year . . . they obviously do, maybe not as much but they still do. If guys didn't have to worry about getting run at - what happened to Lids in that game?

You have to build a reputation as a tough team over time. We made big strides last year and took a major step back this year.

[jvxp 0]

Yeah we are, but not that much more. My point is that Downey did not prevent Lids and other guys from getting run at last year. The claim wasn't that Downey reduced the number of skilled Wings players getting run at but rather that when Downey is there our skill players don't have to worry about getting run at. But based upon last year . . . they obviously do, maybe not as much but they still do. If guys didn't have to worry about getting run at - what happened to Lids in that game?

read esteef's post (below yours) and that is your answer.................

[uk_redwing 495]

Because Lids didn't get run at during the Colorado game last season when Downey was on the team. I like Downey on the team but our skilled guys still got run at with him there last year he did not change that.

Can you remember any other time a wings player was run at last season? Where-as the season before youtube is loaded with cheapshots on wings players.

And, lets be perfectly honest. As a fan, which reaction to a hit would you rather see?

This:

Or this:

Or this:

Or this:

Or this:

Or this:

Funny how 05-06, 06-07 was loaded with cheap shots. Yes 07-08 only had the one with Downey in the line-up.

[Ratbastrd 90]

Someone should look up how many Stanley Cups Jody Shelley has won. It can't be more than eight or nine because that would be getting in Jean Beliveau territory and I like to think I'd remember that. Shelley was playing with them last year, too, right? When they collapsed from too many passengers?

A slow-skating two-minute-per-game goon is just not part of Mike Babcock hockey in 2008. Let's live with that and, in fact, embrace it. Teams are bending over backwards to imitate it. If people here really think getting rid of Maltby and Draper and adding a thug is going to help the dressing room or on-ice chemistry, I don't think I can agree with that.

I'd rather have a good penalty killer/faceoff man than a goon as my 18th skater. And I'll die with that on my tombstone.

WOW!

A voice of reason on this board.

I have read and posted in a handful of threads, all relating to whether or not the Wings need an enforcer.

Two observations on this:

1. The Wings are only 8 points removed from the best record in the NHL, which by the way is the best record in NHL history. What is the ******* problem?

2. Having an enforcer means giving something or someone up, who is that going to be? What will be the cost of that exchange and how will it affect chemistry etc. You have a good mixture right now, why fix what isn't broken?

Also, instead of posting two responses, I will condense. The author of this article really needs to find a day job. If Shelley was the cure for the teams problems, why didn't they make it farther then the second round last year? Where was Shelley when Marleau was getting clothes lined? Where was Shelley in the Dallas series when Michalek got crushed and did not return?

Sorry but this watchful eye bit is bulls***. Shelley has toned down his thug antics from last year and is actually starting to show some hockey skills and is contributing more on the forecheck then he is by getting his ass kicked regularly as he did last year. If this guy is going to write an article about Shelley, which makes little sense to me, then why not talk about the success of his 4th line this year, which has been a factor in a number of victories?

[Frozen-Man 144]

For the ONE-MILLIONTh TIME! No one says fighters/enforcers COMPLETELY STOP all cheap shots from happening. They DO deter more of that s*** from happening from lesser douchebag players. The point of having them is for response, team morale, momentum, etc. Just ask ANY GM, coach or player.

esteef

No need to yell, and no need to get pissy - I was making a response to a specific comment. That comment was that Downey let "our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at." My only point is that that specific statement is not true. Our guys still had to worry about getting run at - if they didn't they sure should have a la the Lidstrom hit. I never said that an enforcer is not good "for response, team morale, momentum, etc[,]" in fact I think they are great for that purpose but players will still have to worry about getting run at with or without an enforcer. I like enforcers I wish we had a good one on our team. I would love to have a guy like Lucic on the team - that was not the point of my response. Before you go off make sure you know what the other person said.

All these responses to my comments are backtracking and changing the argument. Everyone acknowledges that Lids got run at last year - my ONLY point was that even with an enforcer our skill guys will still get run at. What may change is the response after one of our players gets run at, and I greatly applaud Downey's response but that does not change the fact our player still got run at. THAT WAS THE WHOLE STATEMENT - OUR GUYS WON'T GET RUN AT AND ALL I SAID IS YES THEY STILL WILL - SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE THAT IS WRONG?

Edited December 17, 2008 by Frozen-Man

[esteef 2,679]

So, how are the Sharks doing this year with Shelley in the lineup? Btw, the Sharks also have Clowe, Grier, and Murray to name a few other fighting players. But yes, they are scrambling to imitate the Wings.

esteef

[Guest Shoreline]

So, how are the Sharks doing this year with Shelley in the lineup? Btw, the Sharks also have Clowe, Grier, and Murray to name a few other fighting players. But yes, they are scrambling to imitate the Wings.

esteef

The only emulation I see from the Sharks on the Wings is defensive responsibility and taking advantage of opportunities on the offense. No doubt the Wings have lost some big fundamentals, and in the case of having someone to back the team up and provide energy, that's just another thing that's non-existent thusfar.

[esteef 2,679]

No need to yell, and no need to get pissy - I was making a response to a specific comment. That comment was that Downey let "our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at." My only point is that that specific statement is not true. Our guys still had to worry about getting run at - if they didn't they sure should have a la the Lidstrom hit. I never said that an enforcer is not good "for response, team morale, momentum, etc[,]" in fact I think they are great for that purpose but players will still have to worry about getting run at with or without an enforcer. I like enforcers I wish we had a good one on our team. I would love to have a guy like Lucic on the team - that was not the point of my response. Before you go off make sure you know what the other person said.

All these responses to my comments are backtracking and changing the argument. Everyone acknowledges that Lids got run at last year - my ONLY point was that even with an enforcer our skill guys will still get run at. What may change is the response after one of our players gets run at, and I greatly applaud Downey's response but that does not change the fact our player still got run at. THAT WAS THE WHOLE STATEMENT - OUR GUYS WON'T GET RUN AT AND ALL I SAID IS YES THEY STILL WILL - SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE THAT IS WRONG?

OK Mr. Absolute. Yes, technically players still get run with fighters/enforcers on the team. Problem is, no one contested that. It's a stupid all-or-nothing comment to try and score some cheap points in this thread. Anyone with a f***in' head on their shoulders realizes the number of cheap s*** against your team goes down with an enforcer in tow. But please continue with your "Nuh-uh! It still happens!" crap, dancing all around the point being made without acknowledging it.

esteef

[Guest Shoreline]

OK Mr. Absolute. Yes, technically players still get run with fighters/enforcers on the team. Problem is, no one contested that. It's a stupid all-or-nothing comment to try and score some cheap points in this thread. Anyone with a f***in' head on their shoulders realizes the number of cheap s*** against your team goes down with an enforcer in tow. But please continue with your "Nuh-uh! It still happens!" crap, dancing all around the point being made without acknowledging it.

Yes. It's a straw man argument. I've seen plenty of these before.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Shoreline

[jvxp 0]

For the ONE-MILLIONTh TIME! No one says fighters/enforcers COMPLETELY STOP all cheap shots from happening. They DO deter more of that s*** from happening from lesser douchebag players. The point of having them is for response, team morale, momentum, etc. Just ask ANY GM, coach or player.

esteef

bold print....................and I'm out.

[jvxp 0]

Thanks esteef for trying to get it through his head.

[esteef 2,679]

Yes. It's a straw man argument. I've seen plenty of these before.

You're not helping!

[Frozen-Man 144]

So, how are the Sharks doing this year with Shelley in the lineup? Btw, the Sharks also have Clowe, Grier, and Murray to name a few other fighting players. But yes, they are scrambling to imitate the Wings.

esteef

Esteef, I have always liked your posts but we are not even discussing on the same page. I wish we had a better enforcer. But look at the article, it is just written by some guy and is nothing but his personal opinion. The Sharks have had those guys you mentioned for several years (except Shelley they got for like 30 games last year) and they haven't won the Cup. They did however get a new coach who is helping that group play better. I like the Sharks, they are a good team and are fun to watch. I like their players and like the grit and never said they are trying to imitate the Wings but the Wings are pretty good too and have been pretty good for years. The Wings will probably never (at least in the near future) have a roster like the Sharks but it has worked for them. My point through all this is that Shelley is not the big difference for the Sharks and that our players will still get run at with or without an enforcer. That being said I wish we could find a good one but don't think much will change regarding the team with our without Downey being in the lineup (and for the record I would like him in the lineup over Koppey because he is more enjoyable to watch and I like to watch the fights). I just don't see him as that big a difference maker.

[jvxp 0]

Also to add something else.....were not trying to be pissy. Just making a point that is true.

[esteef 2,679]

Esteef, I have always liked your posts but we are not even discussing on the same page. I wish we had a better enforcer. But look at the article, it is just written by some guy and is nothing but his personal opinion. The Sharks have had those guys you mentioned for several years (except Shelley they got for like 30 games last year) and they haven't won the Cup. They did however get a new coach who is helping that group play better. I like the Sharks, they are a good team and are fun to watch. I like their players and like the grit and never said they are trying to imitate the Wings but the Wings are pretty good too and have been pretty good for years. The Wings will probably never (at least in the near future) have a roster like the Sharks but it has worked for them. My point through all this is that Shelley is not the big difference for the Sharks and that our players will still get run at with or without an enforcer. That being said I wish we could find a good one but don't think much will change regarding the team with our without Downey being in the lineup (and for the record I would like him in the lineup over Koppey because he is more enjoyable to watch and I like to watch the fights). I just don't see him as that big a difference maker.

How do you know this? It's just your opinion that he's not the reason. Right?

BTW, it's not lost on me that the linked article was just the writer's opinion, but that doesn't make it false does it?

esteef