GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Helm and Leino are great additions, but the only one I really think needs to be replaced is Sammy. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom Hossa, Flip, Cleary Leino, Hudler, Franzen Malts, Draper, Kopecky Each of the top 3 lines have a play making center, a scoring winger and a winger that will muck it up in the corners and get in front of the net. Of course the 4 line does what it always does...check and give energy when needed. Helm will get his time... You want to get rid of Sammy, but you are OK with keeping Kopecky? I can't quite grasp that one. Edited February 9, 2009 by GoWings1905 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted February 9, 2009 It's the way he's being used, the players he plays with and the role he is expected to fill (no pun intended) that is important as far as his development goes. He plays a fair number of minutes, but he doesn't get any PP time, he doesn't play with linemates like Zetterberg or Franzen (as Hudler usually does) and he frequently plays with Lebda and Lilja, being expected to fill a more defensive third-line centre role. He has done that admirably and until this team's offensive depth decreases (which it inevitably will) his offensive production is going to be lower than hoped. :clap: Exactly, Flip has been put in a position where he is not going to put up monster numbers regardless of his minutes. It is unfair to look at his points compared to Huds and say he isn't filling as valuable a role because they are playing such different roles. The thing with Filppula is that he's not amazing. That's not a knock. He's good defensively. He's decent offensively. He doesn't really hit much. Is that worth $3 mill? You can argue that he'd score more with more time. But when given that time, he's only a 40-50 point player, folks. He scored an amazing goal in the Finals. Thank him for that. However, salary cap constraints call for tough decisions. Do you really think it's worth losing a 40 goal scorer (Hossa) or a 30 goal scorer (Franzen--projected) for a guy who has great upside? Use that upside. You can't keep 'em all. I know it is not the general consensus around here but I think he is worth the $3M largely because he is locked up at that price for four more years, and strangely the salary cap constraints are part of why I think he is worth it. You have a guy who understands the game, can play on any line (maybe not a full time 1st line guy but can fill in if needed), can put up a fair number of points (more if given PP time or scoring/playmaking line mates), can play a defensive offensive role, and many think will continue to improve given the increased responsibility/chance. We have 3 guys locked up for at least $6M (cap hit) a year for 3 or more years, plus we would like to add Hossa to that group for about that amount and Lids for at least 1 more year (and hopefully a lot longer although he may take a smaller salary). I think it is very beneficial to have a guy like Flip for another 4 years that can supply stability on the lower lines, no matter what role he is asked to play, for the $3M hit. Just my two cents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted February 9, 2009 :clap: Exactly, Flip has been put in a position where he is not going to put up monster numbers regardless of his minutes. It is unfair to look at his points compared to Huds and say he isn't filling as valuable a role because they are playing such different roles. I know it is not the general consensus around here but I think he is worth the $3M largely because he is locked up at that price for four more years, and strangely the salary cap constraints are part of why I think he is worth it. You have a guy who understands the game, can play on any line (maybe not a full time 1st line guy but can fill in if needed), can put up a fair number of points (more if given PP time or scoring/playmaking line mates), can play a defensive offensive role, and many think will continue to improve given the increased responsibility/chance. We have 3 guys locked up for at least $6M (cap hit) a year for 3 or more years, plus we would like to add Hossa to that group for about that amount and Lids for at least 1 more year (and hopefully a lot longer although he may take a smaller salary). I think it is very beneficial to have a guy like Flip for another 4 years that can supply stability on the lower lines, no matter what role he is asked to play, for the $3M hit. Just my two cents. On a normal team you are absolutely right. But the situation changes when we're trying to keep Hossa, Franzen, and Hudler. If there is any way, any way at all to keep all three of those guys, Flip has to be the one to be let go, you know? I kind of have a feeling that Hudler will walk, just because Babcock wouldn't give him ice time for so long, and in that case keep Flip, but I think Hossa, Franzen and Hudler is better than Hossa, Franzen and Flip or Hossa, Flip and Hudler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Louisville 112 Report post Posted February 9, 2009 Since you guys are such experts on Val, who was giving him 'charity' points last year? Franzen?...who didn't get going until the end of the season... Can't be Datsyuk and Zetterberg because they were on a line together mostly... Hmmm...maybe it was Datsyuk when Val filled in for Zetterberg on the Z-D-H line while he was out? He played pretty good with them as I remember it. Maybe it was Hudler and Sammy but you guys wanted them traded so badly last deadline it can't be those guys. Truth is, we really haven't seen what he has to offer, his rookie season he didn't play much, last year must have been a fluke, and this year he's only good because we have good people around him. Oh yeah, he was pretty good in the playoffs but that doesn't count, of course. Last year: 78 GP 36 P This year: 53 GP 26 P Only 10 points behind last years totals (but I digress because as YoungGuns pointed out he's getting charity points). Yes he has a larger drop off in goals but why should he have to score when he's always been a playmaker? Why should he have to score when he's got Hudler, Franzen, Hossa (who he really hasn't played too much with until recently), and Sammy to pass to? Also, if you think that being on the third line for the majority of the season and no power play time doesn't effect you and your stats... then you are a moron. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wingsallwin 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2009 Helm and Leino are great additions, but the only one I really think needs to be replaced is Sammy. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom Hossa, Flip, Cleary Leino, Hudler, Franzen Malts, Draper, Kopecky Each of the top 3 lines have a play making center, a scoring winger and a winger that will muck it up in the corners and get in front of the net. Of course the 4 line does what it always does...check and give energy when needed. Helm will get his time... We need Kopecky over Helm? WOW!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted February 10, 2009 On a normal team you are absolutely right. But the situation changes when we're trying to keep Hossa, Franzen, and Hudler. If there is any way, any way at all to keep all three of those guys, Flip has to be the one to be let go, you know? I kind of have a feeling that Hudler will walk, just because Babcock wouldn't give him ice time for so long, and in that case keep Flip, but I think Hossa, Franzen and Hudler is better than Hossa, Franzen and Flip or Hossa, Flip and Hudler. I see your point and don't disagree in the short term but the only one I think we can get for around Flip money is Hudler and I don't think it will be for 4 years. I see him taking a 2 year deal and then when he's not a RFA getting a bigger contract. I know that Flips contract will mean that we cannot keep all three of those guys or probably even two but I'm concerned about what that many longish term big contracts will mean 3 and 4 years from now when some of these great (hopefully) up and coming talents (Ericsson, Helm, Leino, Abdelkader, etc.) will get their pay raises. I think his $3M may look pretty good then. Again, I could be wrong or that could be looking too long term but I think we have to start considering the pay raises some of these younger guys will get in a few years when the other guys are beginning the backside of their careers but still have a pretty big cap hit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
South Dakota wings fan 7 Report post Posted February 10, 2009 I would rather see it this way: Hank-Dats-Homer Franzen-Cleary-Hossa Helm-Hudler-Leino Downey/Maltby-Draper-Samuelson But I agree that they both belong I like these lines: Z-Dats-Homer Mule-Flip-Hossa Huds-Helm-Sammy Cleary-Draper-Malts/Kopy/Leino I really like what that 3rd line brings to the ice. It was the 4th line in the playoffs, and I think they have played very well with each other. I do struggle with what to do for the last forward spot. I like what Leino brings, but it is hard to boot Matlby in the playoffs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted February 11, 2009 Well Babs must really likes what he see's with Leino. So far in his 5 games with the team he has 3 points and a +4 rating. But the fact that Babs is playing him 14+ min ave, and alot on the PP indicates to me that he has a big future in Detroit. Although not lightning quick he has soome speed but its his hands and steady play that seem's to be winning Babs over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
