How can anyone blame the Refs for any of the Wings' losses?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Not just fear of a loss, but a total bandwagon jailbreak. No doubt we have plenty of spoiled-ass-rotten fans.

What team doesn't in this situation? Success attracts fair-weather fans, there's nothing we can do about that other than ridicule the worst of them.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I knew it! Drake Markus is who I suspected all along... it's not that silly guy looking tough in his avatar, it's in deed...

No idea what this statement has to do with the rest of your post, or whether you actually believe what you wrote makes sense in relation to the original post.

But I'll be sure to keep my eye out for this Drake Markus character you speak of.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Drake_Marcus - I always enjoy your postings on these forums. You always seem to say exactly what I am thinking or what I should be thinking, although in a more organized and educated manor. Thank-you for again stating what we should be thinking.

It sure is hard to think that positive, and that calm with all the fear of a loss looming.

Thanks.

I'm definitely making an effort to think positively. And I'm definitely scared about Friday because anything can happen in a best of 1 game series.

The standard of officiating has be terrible in the playoffs, especially with regards to how interference is called. The refs refused to call obvious interference (especially when it comes to how defensemen block the leading forward from entering the zone after he dumps the puck in). But both teams have adjusted to the sudden return to clutch and grab hockey, with Hall Gill being the greatest beneficiary of the sudden shift in reffing. Seeing Gill plodding along on the 1st PK and the top defensive pairing only speaks to how bizarre the situation is.

[Factorial 0]

Because the Pens seem to get away with almost anything. Slashes, cross checks, even 6 men on the ice. It would be nice to have the rules enforced once in a while.

I'm not saying the ref's are completely biased. They make terrible calls on all sides and then let the legit ones go. The ref's are just terrible. And ok maybe a little biased.

To complain about the judge- referee of what those lost always make.

[Selke13 0]

in the wings losses, minus some spurts, they've played some uninspired hockey

[talex 1]

Thanks.

I'm definitely making an effort to think positively. And I'm definitely scared about Friday because anything can happen in a best of 1 game series.

The standard of officiating has be terrible in the playoffs, especially with regards to how interference is called. The refs refused to call obvious interference (especially when it comes to how defensemen block the leading forward from entering the zone after he dumps the puck in). But both teams have adjusted to the sudden return to clutch and grab hockey, with Hall Gill being the greatest beneficiary of the sudden shift in reffing. Seeing Gill plodding along on the 1st PK and the top defensive pairing only speaks to how bizarre the situation is.

I wish I could completely agree with your original post, but I cannot. I still say the refs seem to ref based on drama, not intergrity of the game. I agree that most times a team needs to realize the refs are not going to catch everything and will have to over come that. Another poster said it best and I will say it again.

Loosing and playing hard without the what if's is not bad and you can even gain respect for the opposing team. All the what if's brought about by the refs leave the loosing teams fans feeling angry and disconnected.

Also just because many fans feel that officiating is an issue it does not make them less of a fan, we roll with the tide as much as any other fan, but notice and remember things like 6 men on the ice negating a wings power play, then during the time the Wings would have been on the pp, the pens get one... that is a big what if left on that game, also if you dvr'd it look at that game and 1 of the goals was also scored on an offside play, does that mean the wings would have won? No, but it certainly means that might have and it's the what if's that leave some dis-satisfied with the game / series.

[trogdor 5]

from another site

"Calls Don't Matter

The losing team just played bad. How can anyone claim that seriously? Ever notice how the team ripped by the bad calls always seems to play bad? Maybe there is a connection? Maybe a team can't do what they want if they get whistled for every little thing, or maybe the other team is able to do more because they're not getting whistled for anything?

Anybody who thinks refs can't control a game simply needs to remember back when the Pistons played the Cavs 2-3 years ago.

The Pistons won the first game by 20 and the second game by 30. They go to Cleveland and somehow the Cavs win by 20. People, that's a FIFTY POINT DIFFERENTIAL. No way were the teams 50 points apart from one game to the next.

In Detroit, the Pistons D got the close calls and Lebron had to play by most of the rules. In Cleveland, the Cavs got the close calls and Lebron could break dance and charge all he wanted. The refs certainly had a HUGE effect on the games.

It might not be 50 points in hockey, but an inconsistently cheap call to let a team score a winning goal in the 3rd period certainly has an effect.

Closing their eyes to six men on the ice, which led to a team scoring the winning goal certainly had an effect on the game.

Throwing a team's most physical player out of the game for a LEGAL check, after not originally even calling a minor penalty, certainly has an effect on the game.

Missing an obvious interference on a team's best defensive player on the play the game-winning goal was scored certainly has an effect on the game.

Taking away a goal because the ref said he INTENDED to blow his whistle certainly has an effect on the game.

These were all things where ONE GOAL decided the game. And all were set up by bad calls. Not 50/50 calls, but INCREDIBLY BAD calls.

I'm hardly even notiving the NON-calls, like Pavel getting elbowed to the head last night and his helmet ripped off, or the Wing who got nailed behind the goal and even the announcers said it should've been a penalty. "

[FedorovMan91 1]

Just my opinion but I think the early penalty does matter to the game whether it is converted or not. Last night, the Wings play better in the beginning of the 1st period than the 1st period after 5 or 6 minutes. Jordan Staal pushed Zetterberg and we got an interference goal.

As a result, Pens did not score on the PP but that took away our momentum. To forget this, the Wings play very bad. Babcock just looked forward to the safe line change, no forecheck, no heart, horrible offense and defense.

[The Winged Wheel 0]

The funniest was the penalty on Zetter in the first for goalie interference. The ref right in front of the play staring right at it did not make the call, but the ref from centre ice did. And everyone noted that was a terrible call. If the ref from centre ice is staring at that play he should easily be able to see the other ref right in front of the play not making a penalty call, therefore not calling one himself.

Yes, that was Bill McCreary, the man who's had something against the Wings for like 100 years. How the f*** do you make that call from the neutral zone when the ref by the net didn't call it? That kind of s*** should not be allowed where the ref who is halfway across the rink didn't even see it shouldn't be able to call it. Besides at that angle he's the one who had the best view to see that Z was pushed into the goalie and didn't run into him. f*** YOU, BILL MCCREARY.

[danijel 0]

Yes, that was Bill McCreary, the man who's had something against the Wings for like 100 years. How the f*** do you make that call from the neutral zone when the ref by the net didn't call it? That kind of s*** should not be allowed where the ref who is halfway across the rink didn't even see it shouldn't be able to call it. Besides at that angle he's the one who had the best view to see that Z was pushed into the goalie and didn't run into him. f*** YOU, BILL MCCREARY.

another fine example of how the NHL fails as a league. why can't the refs and linesmen get together after a called penalty and discuss it? this is one of the worst things in the nhl. imagine what Joannette was thinking after that call. he's standing there knowing it's not a penalty and yet can't do anything about it because the 2nd ref put his arm up which apparently is a penalty set in stone. no way the refs can ever make a mistake right? if their arm goes up it's a penalty 100% for sure right? no need to discuss with people who might have a better vantage point.

so yeah, f*** you mccreary and f*** you NHL, the most incompetent league in all of professional sports

[IceMunkee 15]

Officiating has been awful and inconsistent since the Playoff's begin. Not just for the Wings but every team. Has Pittsburg had more calls in thier favor, or missed calls then the wings? Yes I do think so, but that is not the reason we are going to game 7. Missed oppurtunies and bad bounces. Not to mention a skilled Penguins team. A great team, no. But a very good team indeed. This is hockey now, it absolutely has to be fixed but that outcome is unlikely. Blaming the Ref's is just trying to find an excuse.

Also the 6th man mistake will live on in Detroit's infamous history for probably the duration of my life. A horrible miscall, but it could happen to any team, right? Hmmmm.....

[IceMunkee 15]

from another site

"Calls Don't Matter

The losing team just played bad. How can anyone claim that seriously? Ever notice how the team ripped by the bad calls always seems to play bad? Maybe there is a connection? Maybe a team can't do what they want if they get whistled for every little thing, or maybe the other team is able to do more because they're not getting whistled for anything?

Anybody who thinks refs can't control a game simply needs to remember back when the Pistons played the Cavs 2-3 years ago.

The Pistons won the first game by 20 and the second game by 30. They go to Cleveland and somehow the Cavs win by 20. People, that's a FIFTY POINT DIFFERENTIAL. No way were the teams 50 points apart from one game to the next.

In Detroit, the Pistons D got the close calls and Lebron had to play by most of the rules. In Cleveland, the Cavs got the close calls and Lebron could break dance and charge all he wanted. The refs certainly had a HUGE effect on the games.

It might not be 50 points in hockey, but an inconsistently cheap call to let a team score a winning goal in the 3rd period certainly has an effect.

Closing their eyes to six men on the ice, which led to a team scoring the winning goal certainly had an effect on the game.

Throwing a team's most physical player out of the game for a LEGAL check, after not originally even calling a minor penalty, certainly has an effect on the game.

Missing an obvious interference on a team's best defensive player on the play the game-winning goal was scored certainly has an effect on the game.

Taking away a goal because the ref said he INTENDED to blow his whistle certainly has an effect on the game.

These were all things where ONE GOAL decided the game. And all were set up by bad calls. Not 50/50 calls, but INCREDIBLY BAD calls.

I'm hardly even notiving the NON-calls, like Pavel getting elbowed to the head last night and his helmet ripped off, or the Wing who got nailed behind the goal and even the announcers said it should've been a penalty. "

All but the Basketball referance is making me think of recanting my above post.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

the rules were only enforced in one game in the SCF, and that's game 5. see what happens to the penguins when they get penalties for atleast some of the s*** they do?? they have to go to the dressing room and change their diapers between periods and get the "quit unravelling speach". when your gary's team/poster boys, you get away with s***.

[WingsNick5 0]

I agree that the Wings did not play with the tenacity that the Pens did in game 6. And, while I agree that they came up short (if only by a goal) in that same game. I must also agree that the refs played a big part in the loss. The change of momentum based on their biased calls, the lack of calling blatent penalties (elbows to the head, interference on Raffy down low, interference to Nick--that resulted in a goal, hits to players that didn't have or were not near the puck), and the call on Z was just plain biased!

But, IF the refs call the game like it is supposed to be called, fairly and justly, then I have no doubt that the Wings will win tomorrow night. They will have the tenacity and drive that the Pens had in game 6 and will blow them out of the water--just like game 5. Quite a bit of difference between game 5 (when the calls were made) and game 6 (when they weren't).

How can anyone not see this? I'm not sure but I think it's called turning a blind eye.

We can thank Buttman for his promotion of the baby to center stage status and then coaxing refs to jump on his wagon.

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

The reffing is not directly related to us losing, but terrible officiating can sure take the air out of some tires. Maybe one team does not score on their pp, but the players who had to kill off that penalty must become even more tired. Especially if the penalty was killed off, it means the team killing it did everything they could and most likely wore themselves out for the next few minutes. It is always the Wings who get the first penalty, and they get their penalties early. The Pens never seem to get their penalties until much later. And I do think there is bias toward the Pens sometimes. There is honestly no way one referee standing at center ice can honestly think "goalie interference on Zetterberg...I can see that 100% clearly even though I'm so far and the other referee much closer doesn't think it's a penalty." And do you guys honestly think the referees couldn't count to six in game three? And let's not forget in the game 7 against the Caps, the Penguins got ZERO penalties. Do you guys honestly think they played an absolutely perfect game without doing a single thing wrong? I don't think any team can. And they came really close to getting a second game with zero penalties the other night. This is evidence towards bias for sure, whether or not the actual league is doing this or just the refs.

However, the Wings do need to play better and push through this because true champions overcome any difficulties. They need to let go of the ref mistakes instead of getting frustrated.

[Mcquade 0]

The refs refused to call obvious interference (especially when it comes to how defensemen block the leading forward from entering the zone after he dumps the puck in).

Sorry but that's not what interference is. The last player to carry the puck is still considered "in possession" for several seconds, or until it's snagged by another player. They're allowed to be hit. It's just plain hockey to prevent dump ins like that.. and if the Pens have learned the art of it from anyone it's the Wings. That little tug-n-mug happens on both sides of the ice all game long and it's legit.

On that Ericsson call where he grabbed Cooke it was interference. Cooke never had the puck. The hit was made to prevent him from getting to it by a player who was out of position to make the right defensive play - pretty much definition of interference. I'm sure there have been small instances of similar "real" interferences by the Pens not called.. but to the OP's point, there also have been more like Ericsson's committed by the Wings. (sorry Red Wings.. that curvy end of the Pens' sticks is not a handle.)

I just can't see how fans of a team, who out of 6 games benifitted from one where 12 penalties where handed to the other team, should be bringing this up now? There were solid calls in game 5 for sure, but many more "arguable" ones like the slash on Gonchar which lead to a score. If anyone wants to whine and make excuses over penalties it falls on deaf ears from either side. This is a great series.. don't miss it because you're too busy screaming about the refs.

[Mcquade 0]

Snagged this from Tuesday's game notes. Thought it was funny and sort of belonged in this thread:

17:47: Letang and Franzen raced back for an iced puck. Letang touches it first. Franzen tumbles and crashes into the boards back first and is slow to recover. He needs to be on for the faceoff unless he's legitimately injured. Osgood realizes this and "suddenly" has an equipment problem with his mask. The team equipment manager fiddles with Osgood's mask to "repair" it. Essentially, all Osgood is doing it buying Franzen some time to shake off the cobwebs. The Penguins' bench is livid. Fans are booing.

Had it been the other way and the Pens done this I have a feeling I'd be reading about it in this thread.

[cfthunderbird 0]

I like to consider myself, one of those fans that don't blame the referees for losses, and that most calls are legit, or some calls are missed because of the speed of the game. And being a Wings fan I've heard many non-fans of Detroit say how Refs favour Detroit. Now there is no doubt Detroit do play a little interfence on the forecheck at times, and it basically is a strategy to give your other d-man some time to get the puck, instead of getting crushed in the boards. But the interfernce that Hall Gill is getting away with is beyond the minor bump to slow down the forwards of Detroit. He's holding them up and sometimes even dragging their puckless bodies into the corner and getting away with it at least 5 times a night. Hall Gill is big and slow and the fast Wing forwards are trying to dump the puck in his corner and chase, but Gill is interfering with them constantly and he's not getting those calls.

I watched game 6, and the first 2 periods, the Wings got 2 bad calls on them, Zetts get goalie interference called and he is obviously pushed into Fleury, and Flips acidently bumps into a Pens forward in the neutral ice...both brutal calls......however Detroit killed those penalties, and after that we had chances just never capitilized on them.

I think, we will have 2 veteran refs in for game 7, and I really hope they let them play so this can be decided 5 on 5. With the last change and line matchups that Babcock will be able to get, I really like our chance at home at the Joe.

[Guest Shoreline]

Snagged this from Tuesday's game notes. Thought it was funny and sort of belonged in this thread:

Had it been the other way and the Pens done this I have a feeling I'd be reading about it in this thread.

You would. And it's been done to the Wings before.

[egroen 384]

I just can't see how fans of a team, who out of 6 games benifitted from one where 12 penalties where handed to the other team, should be bringing this up now? There were solid calls in game 5 for sure, but many more "arguable" ones like the slash on Gonchar which lead to a score. If anyone wants to whine and make excuses over penalties it falls on deaf ears from either side. This is a great series.. don't miss it because you're too busy screaming about the refs.

I can't believe the calls at the end of Game 5 are a point of contention for Penguins' fans, but apparently it's a stickler (as if that had any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of that game). Penguins were cheapshotting and gooning it up in that game, and if the refs did not get it in control, it could have gotten out of hand. Refs will always call blow-out games a bit tight when one team is starting to visibly get chippy, as the Pens were. Pittsburgh was losing their composure. See the Blackhawks in Game 4 for a comparison.

If you are going to ***** at calls, at least make it for a game you had even a chance of winning. Who cares if the Pens had a coule less penalties in Game 5 - they could have also easily had a few more.

[Quadnational 3]

Snagged this from Tuesday's game notes. Thought it was funny and sort of belonged in this thread:

Had it been the other way and the Pens done this I have a feeling I'd be reading about it in this thread.

I don't think so... very minor considering all else that's gone on. Delaying the game a minute or two, compared to having a game-tying goal waived off in the last few minutes!

I agree with a lot of what Drake says, and I don't believe in Ref conspiracy for one team to win. However, I do think that the overall refereeing standard has changed since the first round, with less and less things being called. When that happens, it neutralizes any difference in skill level between teams and favors the bigger, more physical team.

If everything's getting called, a quicker, more skilled (on average, but also smaller) team such as the Wings generates more scoring opportunites and power plays by drawing penalties (hooking, holding, interference) using their skill and speed. The less things are called, the more that speed and skill is neutralized by the other team not being called on those penalties anymore. As an extreme example, if you have Helm vs. Gill (speed vs. size), Gill can now hook/hold/interfere and disrupt with relative impunity. Yes, Helm can do the same to Gill, but it's not going to have the same effect (Gill won't end up on his ass).

Take that extreme example and apply it to the whole team, and you see how putting away the whistles favors the bigger, more physical team. Not to a huge extent as in the example, but averaged out to the whole team it does have an effect. Lidstrom gets a stick between the legs while being closest to the puck, guy who was BEHIND him gets the puck, goal is scored. His skill was just neutralized by a more physical approach.

That's the overall effect we're seeing here, just like the last 2 times we played the Ducks in the playoffs. The first time, the Ducks approach won, this last time, the Wings managed to fight through it (and some things were still being called). The Refs aren't determining the games, but the way they've decided to call the penalties in the Finals is definitely favoring one style of play over the other.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Quadnational

[bellarina 1]

The only issue I have with the officiating ,is that when some one dumps the puck they are held onto for a second at the line.

[Mcquade 0]

The only issue I have with the officiating ,is that when some one dumps the puck they are held onto for a second at the line.

I don't think you're getting it. While it's touchy I agree, what you refer to is not interference.

(NOTE 2) Possession of the Puck:

The last player to touch the puck, other than the goalkeeper, shall be considered the player in possession. The player deemed in possession of the puck may be checked legally, provided the check is rendered immediately following his loss of possession.

This instructs that even after the player dumps the puck, there is a breif time they are considered "in possesion" and legally hittable. The question remains how long does possesion without the puck last and does seem to be subjective at times. Either way it absolutely does happen both ways.. watch what happens to the Pens when they try to dump like that.

[Mcquade 0]

I can't believe the calls at the end of Game 5 are a point of contention for Penguins' fans, but apparently it's a stickler (as if that had any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of that game). Penguins were cheapshotting and gooning it up in that game, and if the refs did not get it in control, it could have gotten out of hand. Refs will always call blow-out games a bit tight when one team is starting to visibly get chippy, as the Pens were. Pittsburgh was losing their composure. See the Blackhawks in Game 4 for a comparison.

If you are going to ***** at calls, at least make it for a game you had even a chance of winning. Who cares if the Pens had a coule less penalties in Game 5 - they could have also easily had a few more.

I wouldn't call the 2nd period the end of the game.. and the blowout didn't come before the penalties, it was the result of them. 3 of the Wings 5 goals came from those penalties in the 2nd. The Hawks game 4 isn't even close to how this one played out.

Point is the game was an example of how penalties were heavily in the Wings favor. Out of 3 Wings wins.. that's how they got 1 of them. Regardless of who thinks what was a good call in this series that game really stands out as being dictated by the whiste, and it hated the Pens that night.

[egroen 384]

I wouldn't call the 2nd period the end of the game.. and the blowout didn't come before the penalties, it was the result of them. 3 of the Wings 5 goals came from those penalties in the 2nd. The Hawks game 4 isn't even close to how this one played out.

Point is the game was an example of how penalties were heavily in the Wings favor. Out of 3 Wings wins.. that's how they got 1 of them. Regardless of who thinks what was a good call in this series that game really stands out as being dictated by the whiste, and it hated the Pens that night.

The Penguins threw that game only down 3 goals and with more than half the game left. it was over at that point (so I was thinking it was the 'end' of the game).

That game played out almost exactly like the Chicago game 4 -- both teams completely lost their composure and started going after wings players (and were called for it).

The penalties were heavily in the Wings favor because Pittsburgh was gooning it up starting midway through the second and well into the third - or did you miss that part?

You are clinging on to a terrible example.

Edited June 11, 2009 by egroen