Holland won't offer Chris Chelios new contract

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Silly, that's not me bashing the Red Wings, that's Jim Vendermeer bashing a (bigger, but weaker and more cowardly) Red Wing, Johan Franzen. I put it up when someone on here was calling Franzen "tough". He's a great player, but Franzen is perhaps the softest player in the league. Rather than being the Wing-hater that some would like to paint me as, I am a rational fan. I call players as they are by my estimation. A guy like Franzen has great offensive upside, but is also a giant *****. Chelios was a great player who was also a cheapshot artist, today he's a subpar player but no longer the dirty player he once was.

I know it drives some people crazy that a man can be a fan of a team without excusing that team's players of their deficiencies. There isn't a Wing that doesn't deserve some applauding and some criticism. I give both where they're due. Nobody comments on the applause for some reason.

Hmm. I like to talk about hockey and hockey players, while you and a few others like to talk about me. I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem.

You're right though, my wife is tough as nails. 4 kids, never an epidural, plus she puts up with my s*** - that woman is grit defined. She's way tougher than Franzen, despite being even tinier than Hudler. She's as pretty as Filpula, and as smart as Lidstrom.

This doesn't drive people crazy.

YOU drive people crazy with you ridiculous thoughts on fighting or standing up to people or god knows what else, this being one of those god knows what else examples. If YOU didn't have such ridiculous viewpoints where YOU alone stand, maybe YOUR posts won't get ridiculed so much.

Multiple times in countless threads all throughout this season people have gotten all over YOUR case for YOUR viewpoints. I don't think people responding to YOU have the problem. When you have this much disdain thrown towards YOUR way, I think that says something about YOUR viewpoints an how f**ked up they are.

"Macho" is bulls**t. "*****" is bulls**t. YOUR way of thinking regarding all of these this is absolute bulls**t.

You either have no clue, or you have all the clue in the world and just purposefully ignore people and post like this to because you like being an attention *****.

YOU are the problem. Wake up.

[Vladifan 680]

I so wish I had a way to convert from olf Beta tape Chelios the coward cheapshotting Steve Yzerman, and then s***ting his pants when Bob Probert came calling, like Cheli should have klnown he would. Sorry, people who cheapshot Steve Yzerman are scum. Pronger? Scum. McGuire (although Yzerman said he started it)? Scum. Chelios? Scum.

Best Defenceman I ever saw, but often pretty scummy. Sorry. He was less scummy than Ulf Sammuelsson and Claude Lemieux though.

Your posts and responses are a perfect example of how one can be really good at reaching, but not grasping. And you're the worst kind of "fan" because you flame your own team members , sometimes while pretending to praise them. And I'm guessing it's obvious to most of us here that you do it to gain attention. How very sad.

What I do appreciate is that you've managed to bring out some really great testimonials about how much the the majority of us here appreciate Chris Chelios and wish him the best.

[TheUkrainian 49]

I think someone should start a "Thank you Chelios" thread and have it be only pictures and positive things about him to counter this thread...

[MattPlay 0]

Thanks for the years of dedication Cheli

[Jedi 1,865]

I know that Chelios has been a bit of a polarizing figure throughout his career in the NHL, but there's no reason we can't keep the discussion here civil. Ok?

[Guest micah]

This doesn't drive people crazy.

YOU drive people crazy with you ridiculous thoughts on fighting or standing up to people or god knows what else, this being one of those god knows what else examples. If YOU didn't have such ridiculous viewpoints where YOU alone stand, maybe YOUR posts won't get ridiculed so much.

Multiple times in countless threads all throughout this season people have gotten all over YOUR case for YOUR viewpoints. I don't think people responding to YOU have the problem. When you have this much disdain thrown towards YOUR way, I think that says something about YOUR viewpoints an how f**ked up they are.

"Macho" is bulls**t. "*****" is bulls**t. YOUR way of thinking regarding all of these this is absolute bulls**t.

You either have no clue, or you have all the clue in the world and just purposefully ignore people and post like this to because you like being an attention *****.

YOU are the problem. Wake up.

Hmm. Let's talk about my viewpoints, shall we? I noticed you didn't really address them for some reason. Do you really not think it's ***** to cheapshot (not just once mind you, Cheli had a habit of it) Steve Yzerman and then refuse to stand up to Steve's teamates when they call you out on your actions?

Do you or do you not think it's "scummy" to crosscheck a player in the throat? How about leading a check with an elbow to the head? Is it only scummy if Chris Pronger does it, but not if Chris Chelios does it? I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. My viewpoint, as clearly stated several times in this and other threads, is that Chris Chelios was a great Dman and a cheapshot artist, and he has recently evolved into a much more diciplined though far less skilled player.

As far as my oppinions not being popular on an internet message board where people come together to talk about their favorite hockey team - I'm okay with that.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Hmm. Let's talk about my viewpoints, shall we? I noticed you didn't really address them for some reason. Do you really not think it's ***** to cheapshot (not just once mind you, Cheli had a habit of it) Steve Yzerman and then refuse to stand up to Steve's teamates when they call you out on your actions?

I've addressed your viewpoints. Others have addressed them. Plenty. Throughout the course of the year. In different threads. And you get roasted for these viewpoints quite often and continuously. Yet you either still do not get it or purposefully ignore the hints that your viewpoints are out of whack.

Again, wake up.

Do you or do you not think it's "scummy" to crosscheck a player in the throat? How about leading a check with an elbow to the head? Is it only scummy if Chris Pronger does it, but not if Chris Chelios does it? I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. My viewpoint, as clearly stated several times in this and other threads, is that Chris Chelios was a great Dman and a cheapshot artist, and he has recently evolved into a much more diciplined though far less skilled player.

Yes I think some of these things are scummy. But when the guy that might have done these things in the past/present is in the uniform of your favorite team, for better or worse you'll be absent of some negataive bias from the fans. Kinda a Captain Obvious moment there. You making Chris Chelios out to be a villan in those clips isn't going to sway people in here, because a lot of the people on here are Red Wings fans. Donald Brasher isn't completely a P.O.S. despite some cheap shots, Crosby isn't completely a whiner despite the contrary, Chelios completely isn't a cheapshort artist, etc. Every player is going to have some not-so-great qualities. Doesn't completely make them villans or whiners or idiots all of the time.

Saying that somebody sucked and shouldn't be remembered for his time with a franchise when he certainly had his good moments with that franchise is quite different than what you just said and is difficult to understand. If you would've said these things from the get-go, you'd probably be getting a lot less s**t from people.

As far as my oppinions not being popular on an internet message board where people come together to talk about their favorite hockey team - I'm okay with that.

Obviously so. Because you keep getting hammered over and over and over again. That doesn't seem worthwhile or productive. Keep the viewpoints up though either here or in 3-d land, I guarantee you your responses will be very similar to the ones in this thread and people would be wanting to beat the snot out of you. And quite frankly I prefer responses other than ones thinking that I was completely obnoxious like you often receive.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain.

Cute.

[JayUp88 1]

For you WRIF listeners, Cheli will be on Mike in the Morning tomorrow. I'm sure a lot will be said about the future.

[Guest micah]

I've addressed your viewpoints. Others have addressed them. Plenty. Throughout the course of the year. In different threads. And you get roasted for these viewpoints quite often and continuously. Yet you either still do not get it or purposefully ignore the hints that your viewpoints are out of whack.

Again, wake up.

Yes I think some of these things are scummy. But when the guy that might have done these things in the past/present is in the uniform of your favorite team, for better or worse you'll be absent of some negataive bias from the fans. Kinda a Captain Obvious moment there. You making Chris Chelios out to be a villan in those clips isn't going to sway people in here, because a lot of the people on here are Red Wings fans. Donald Brasher isn't completely a P.O.S. despite some cheap shots, Crosby isn't completely a whiner despite the contrary, Chelios completely isn't a cheapshort artist, etc. Every player is going to have some not-so-great qualities. Doesn't completely make them villans or whiners or idiots all of the time.

Saying that somebody sucked and shouldn't be remembered for his time with a franchise when he certainly had his good moments with that franchise is quite different than what you just said and is difficult to understand. If you would've said these things from the get-go, you'd probably be getting a lot less s**t from people.

Obviously so. Because you keep getting hammered over and over and over again. That doesn't seem worthwhile or productive. Keep the viewpoints up though either here or in 3-d land, I guarantee you your responses will be very similar to the ones in this thread and people would be wanting to beat the snot out of you. And quite frankly I prefer responses other than ones thinking that I was completely obnoxious like you often receive.

I'll ask again:

Do you really not think it's ***** to cheapshot (not just once mind you, Cheli had a habit of it) Steve Yzerman and then refuse to stand up to Steve's teamates when they call you out on your actions?

Also - I didn't "make Chris Chelios out to be a villan in those clips", Chris Chelios did. I wish he wouldn't have done things like that, but he did, routinely. No reason not to talk about it when reflecting on his otherwise spectacular carreer.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'll ask again:

Do you really not think it's ***** to cheapshot (not just once mind you, Cheli had a habit of it) Steve Yzerman and then refuse to stand up to Steve's teamates when they call you out on your actions?

Also - I didn't "make Chris Chelios out to be a villan in those clips", Chris Chelios did. I wish he wouldn't have done things like that, but he did, routinely. No reason not to talk about it when reflecting on his otherwise spectacular carreer.

And I'll answer again. Yes I think it is like that. Read the entire response instead of reading selectively.

He himself may have made himself to look like a villain in the heat of the moment in those clips, but you specifically are implying that he's a villain and piece of crap years and years down the road when emotions are settled, whether it is your intention or not. That's going to get people to get on your case. Chelios had some bad traits of his game, but they don't completely define his entire game, just like any other player in the league.

Stop reading selectively.

[Guest micah]

"Macho" is bulls**t. "*****" is bulls**t. YOUR way of thinking regarding all of these this is absolute bulls**t.

Okay, so you take the part back about "*****" being bulls***. Good for you, agreeing with me.

I agree with you that "macho" is bulls***. "Macho" makes me think of men with moustaches, and there's nothing good about moustaches, unless it's on George Parros, which is awesome. I don't believe I've ever said that anyone should be macho - I have said that players should be willing to stick up for themselves and their teamates to the best of their ability when the situation demmands - but that isn't being macho - that's doing the bare minimum expected of you as a teammate.

Chelios had some bad traits of his game, but they don't completely define his entire game

Like me, it seems you think that Chelios was for a time great player and sometimes a dirty player. You just paraphrased what I've been saying all along.

We're in full agreement it seems. I'm glad you've come around.

Edited June 24, 2009 by micah

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Okay, so you take the part back about "*****" being bulls***. Good for you, agreeing with me.

No, I didn't. I never said that. You are implying that I did. You are wrong. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though.

I agree with you that "macho" is bulls***. "Macho" makes me think of men with moustaches, and there's nothing good about moustaches, unless it's on George Parros, which is awesome. I don't believe I've ever said that anyone should be macho - I have said that players should be willing to stick up for themselves and their teamates to the best of their ability when the situation demmands - but that isn't being macho - that's doing the bare minimum expected of you as a teammate.

Like me, it seems you think that Chelios was for a time great player and sometimes a dirty player. You just paraphrased what I've been saying all along.

We're in full agreement it seems. I'm glad you've come around.

Selective reading and hearing. You excel at it with flying colors. You are absolutely hopeless and helpless.

[Guest micah]

No, I didn't. I never said that. You are implying that I did. You are wrong. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though.

This is exasperating, wow. After all you've typed, I honestly haven't the feintest idea where you stand.

Selective reading and hearing. You excel at it with flying colors. You are absolutely hopeless and helpless.

What *specific* things that I've said do you disagree with? Feel free to quote them. It would make things so much easier. Thanks!

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

This is exasperating, wow. After all you've typed, I honestly haven't the feintest idea where you stand.

Well that's just your tough luck then, isn't it?

What *specific* things that I've said do you disagree with? Feel free to quote them. It would make things so much easier. Thanks!

Your obnoxious viewpoints on toughness or standing up to people or fighting and god knows what else. So do plenty of other people. It has been pointed out in this thread, in countless other threads throughout the year, by plenty of people.

You selectively read and hear.

You dodge statements when you are being called out for your obnoxious viewpoints worse than the current NHL Commissioner and previous U.S. President combined.

You either do not understand this or do and just purposefully do something similar to covering your ears and yelling LA LA LA like nothing is wrong, not listening/reading what a good bit of people keep telling you over and over and over again about your f**ked up opinions.

You are beyond help.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

This is exasperating, wow. After all you've typed, I honestly haven't the feintest idea where you stand.

Well that's just your tough luck then, isn't it?

What *specific* things that I've said do you disagree with? Feel free to quote them. It would make things so much easier. Thanks!

Your obnoxious viewpoints on toughness or standing up to people or fighting and god knows what else. So do plenty of other people. It has been pointed out in this thread, in countless other threads throughout the year, by plenty of people.

You selectively read and hear.

You dodge statements when you are being called out for your obnoxious viewpoints worse than the current NHL Commissioner and previous U.S. President combined.

You either do not understand this or do and just purposefully do something similar to covering your ears and yelling LA LA LA like nothing is wrong, not listening/reading what a good bit of people keep telling you over and over and over again about your f**ked up opinions.

You are beyond help.

[Guest micah]

Well that's just your tough luck then, isn't it?

*shrug* To be honest, I'm okay with it. Cancer is tough luck. This is just trying to talkabout hockey with someone who'd rather talk about the way I talk about hockey than talk about hockey.

Your obnoxious viewpoints on toughness or standing up to people or fighting and god knows what else. So do plenty of other people. It has been pointed out in this thread, in countless other threads throughout the year, by plenty of people.

You selectively read and hear.

You dodge statements when you are being called out for your obnoxious viewpoints worse than the current NHL Commissioner and previous U.S. President combined.

You either do not understand this or do and just purposefully do something similar to covering your ears and yelling LA LA LA like nothing is wrong, not listening/reading what a good bit of people keep telling you over and over and over again about your f**ked up opinions.

You are beyond help.

Okay, so the answer is "no *specific* things". Gotya.

I don't think I dodge a lot of questions. Ask me anything, I'll do my best to answer it. I'm not shy, go ahead.

[Frozen-Man 144]

This doesn't drive people crazy.

YOU drive people crazy with you ridiculous thoughts on fighting or standing up to people or god knows what else, this being one of those god knows what else examples. If YOU didn't have such ridiculous viewpoints where YOU alone stand, maybe YOUR posts won't get ridiculed so much.

Multiple times in countless threads all throughout this season people have gotten all over YOUR case for YOUR viewpoints. I don't think people responding to YOU have the problem. When you have this much disdain thrown towards YOUR way, I think that says something about YOUR viewpoints an how f**ked up they are.

"Macho" is bulls**t. "*****" is bulls**t. YOUR way of thinking regarding all of these this is absolute bulls**t.

You either have no clue, or you have all the clue in the world and just purposefully ignore people and post like this to because you like being an attention *****.

YOU are the problem. Wake up.

QFT - great post!

I think someone should start a "Thank you Chelios" thread and have it be only pictures and positive things about him to counter this thread...

There is no need for a new thread everyone EXCEPT Micah has congratulated him and praised him for his career and what he has done for this team, and considering most people's opinion of Micah it is actually praise to Cheli that he has bashed him so much. It would concern me more (based upon Micah's warped view) if Micah had good stuff to say about him. He rarely has good stuff to say about the Wing's players, coaches, or management so I expect nothing less from him regarding Cheli. Chalk it up to his dumb/immature/uninformed views like everyone else does.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

*shrug* To be honest, I'm okay with it. Cancer is tough luck. This is just trying to talkabout hockey with someone who'd rather talk about the way I talk about hockey than talk about hockey.

If you didn't have f'ed up viewpoints where countless number of people call you out on over and over and over against and want to rip your head off for, then people wouldn't be talking about the way you talk hockey. You are beyond help.

Okay, so the answer is "no *specific* things". Gotya.

Your obnoxious viewpoints on toughness or standing up to people or fighting. Those are specific things. You are beyond help.

I don't think I dodge a lot of questions. Ask me anything, I'll do my best to answer it. I'm not shy, go ahead.

Yes you do dodge a lot of questions. You are beyond help.

[Jedi 1,865]

Yeah, this one's run it's course.