With All These Injuries; Here Comes Howard!

[stevkrause 1,247]

Context, please. Context.

When he faced Vancouver, the 'Nucks were below the Wings in the Standings.

Dallas? Against Turco? Come on. Had it not been Turco in net, at JLA......? But, (regardless), Dallas was below the Wings in the Standings when he faced them, too.

When he faced the Rangers, they also were below the Wings in the Standings. As a matter of fact, they still have fewer points, in a weaker Conference, than the Wings.

I already stated that he was good against Phoenix on the 14th of December. And he was. That was a good, quality Win against a tough opponent.

Chicago? He played alright in that Game. He also lost. Facing a Team, (as stated previously), on the second night of back-to-backs, and with a fresh Team in front of him.

Take another glance over your list. And tell me how many REAL QUALITY Teams he's faced out of the 23 Games he's played.

and at the time we were better in the standings - irrelevant - these are all teams that will be playoff bound come seasons end and those count as quality. period.

also, with the parity being what it is, you could argue that every win is just as quality, hell, only 11 pts separate the 1st and 10th team in the conference - that's NOTHING compared to the distance that used to separate teams.

so yes. context.

Edited December 30, 2009 by stevkrause

[Outsider 42]

I'm hearing that name a lot this year. Is he the real deal?

Hmmmm.....

Hard to tell. VERY hard to tell.

I'm always, ALWAYS hesitant to overrate a young/rookie goaltender.

ANYONE can have a good year. ANYONE, (at this level), can look like a Vezina Candidate for a year. Many HAVE, as a matter of fact.

I need to see more than a year. Or even TWO years. I need to see consistency. And I need to see "heart". THAT is the true measure of a goaltender, in my eyes.

ALL goaltenders who make it to the NHL Level have "skill". ALL have "talent". Without exception. Otherwise, they never would've made it to this level. Period.

Takes a LOT more than that to be a successful goaltender in THIS League, though.

How does he respond to adversity? Over the long haul.....not over the course of a few months. Or even a whole Season.

The thing I like most about Halak is that he is NOT "flashy". He plays a rather boring-looking game in net. That tells me something about him. Substance over style. Any goaltender can look "quick". Any goaltender can make that flashy save that makes your jaw drop.

When they're barely moving, and it looks EASY out there.....

THAT is when I'm impressed.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

ANYONE can have a good year. ANYONE, (at this level), can look like a Vezina Candidate for a year. Many HAVE, as a matter of fact.

Or perhaps for a single game against a team from Michigan.

[Outsider 42]

and at the time we were better in the standings - irrelevant - these are all teams that will be playoff bound come seasons end and those count as quality. period.

also, with the parity being what it is, you could argue that every win is just as quality, hell, only 11 pts separate the 1st and 10th team in the conference - that's NOTHING compared to the distance that used to separate teams.

so yes. context.

Please, steve.....puhlease.

For the record....

AT THE TIME, the Wings were NOT "better in the Standings". They were no better than 9th when they faced these Teams. ALL were below the Wings when they faced off against them. All but Phoenix, Colorado, and Chicago.

You're going to sit there and type that "with the parity in the League being what it is", that there is little to no difference between the San Jose Sharks and the St. Louis Blues?

That the level of competition when facing the New Jersey Devils is comparable to that when facing the Columbus Blue Jackets.

Yes, there's "parity" in the League. But to state that there's "only 11 pts" separating the BEST Teams in the League from the rest of the pack is utterly ridiculous, AND disingenuous.

There are only TEN points separating the Wings from the Edmonton Oilers. Are the Edmonton Oilers "only 10 points" worse than the Wings? STANDINGS ASIDE? The Oil are five Games BELOW .500, and STILL "only 10 pts" behind the Wings.

Toronto is only SEVEN points behind the Wings. Are THEY "almost as good" as the Wings?

Give your head a shake.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Outsider

[Outsider 42]

Or perhaps for a single game against a team from Michigan.

EXACTLY. Takes a lot more than just fancy flying....

[thedatsyukian 7]

Just because a team is below us in the standing doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a strong offense capable of making a sub-par goaltender look sub-par. Here's a look at some of the G/G of the teams Howard is playing. I did it in reverse order because the statistics are most accurate from the recent games whereas there will be more fluctuation in statistics with older games.

CBJ - 2.61(21st)

CHI - 3.00(6th)

DAL - 2.92(7th)

TB - 2.51(25th)

PHX - 2.54(23rd)

ANA - 2.74(14th)

STL - 2.51(24th)

NYR - 2.71(18th)

EDM - 2.72(16th)

ATL - 3.18(3rd)

VAN- 3.08(5th)

COL - 2.90(8th)

BUF - 2.69(20th)

What the trend looks like to me is that Babcok dropped him in the fire too quickly and elected to have him play teams without as potent of an offense after struggling early. Now that he's gained confidence after playings teams with mediocre to poor offenses he's starting him against some of the better offensive teams in the league. Chances are he's going to face Colorado who has a potent offense so I think the next month or so of games might be very telling as to what he's really capable of.

Edited December 30, 2009 by thedatsyukian

[Outsider 42]

Just because a team is below us in the standing doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a strong offense capable of making a sub-par goaltender look sub-par. Here's a look at some of the G/G of the teams Howard is playing. I did it in reverse order because the statistics are most accurate from the recent games whereas there will be more fluctuation in statistics with older games.

CBJ - 2.61(21st)

CHI - 3.00(6th)

DAL - 2.92(7th)

TB - 2.51(25th)

PHX - 2.54(23rd)

ANA - 2.74(14th)

STL - 2.51(24th)

NYR - 2.71(18th)

EDM - 2.72(16th)

ATL - 3.18(3rd)

VAN- 3.08(5th)

COL - 2.90(8th)

BUF - 2.69(20th)

What the trend looks like to me is that Babcok dropped him in the fire too quickly and elected to have him play teams without as potent of an offense after struggling early. Now that he's gained confidence after playings teams with mediocre to poor offenses he's starting him against some of the better offensive teams in the league. Chances are he's going to face Colorado who has a potent offense so I think the next month or so of games might be very telling as to what he's really capable of.

Have to go to the lovely DMV, but I'll answer when I get back. But just quickly.....

By the way....Toward the beginning of the Season, Detroit was scoring more, too. How much good is the NINE spot they threw up against Columbus, or the SEVEN they hung on the Duckies doing them RIGHT NOW?

How many goals has Columbus scored in their past 10 Games? Here's a hint: They're making EVERY goalie they face look like a Vezina candidate. Just as the Wings are.

Chicago I'll give you. They're scoring ~3 goals per game. That's EXACTLY what they scored against us. Twice.

Dallas scored 4 against Howard the last Game out.

Tampa? Look at how they were scoring COMING INTO the Game where Howard faced him. On a SCORING SLUMP, just as the Wings currently are.

St. Louis and Edmonton have both averaged MORE GA against Howard than their "average". Go figure.

As for Colorado? Coincidentally.....

Coming in on the SECOND NIGHT OF BACK-TO-BACKS.

Again....he's being PLACED into situations where he has the best possible chance to succeed, and the LEAST opportunity to face adversity.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Outsider

[thedatsyukian 7]

I see you're obviously on a quest to discredit the accomplishments of Howard but that wasn't my point at all in those statistics. Merely discrediting the assumption that he was exclusively playing teams with an inability to score goals.

Btw, ease off the caps. It makes you look like a child going on a tirade.

Edited December 30, 2009 by thedatsyukian

[Pucks 66]

I was one of the few people supporting him he when the season started. I said at the time that he'd easily put up numbers better than Osgood. People acted silly like that was impossible. All the guy needed was some time to get comfortable. He's still learning and getting more adjusted to the pro game. He's still going to get better IMO.

[Outsider 42]

I see you're obviously on a quest to discredit the accomplishments of Howard but that wasn't my point at all in those statistics. Merely discrediting the assumption that he was exclusively playing teams with an inability to score goals.

Btw, ease off the caps. It makes you look like a child going on a tirade.

<sigh>

I'm not trying to "discredit" his accomplishments. I'm trying to temper everyone here who thinks he's suddenly worthy and capable of leading this Team through a long play off run, based on a record built up almost exclusively against bottom feeders. (There....is the bold better than teh CAPS?).

In the future, I'll try to post in a style more in line with what you'd like to see. Deal?

[thedatsyukian 7]

<sigh>

I'm not trying to "discredit" his accomplishments. I'm trying to temper everyone here who thinks he's suddenly worthy and capable of leading this Team through a long play off run, based on a record built up almost exclusively against bottom feeders. (There....is the bold better than teh CAPS?).

In the future, I'll try to post in a style more in line with what you'd like to see. Deal?

Actually, that's much better. Thank you. Spreading out every line is good in theory but in practice, it's a bit of an eye sore.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Please, steve.....puhlease.

For the record....

AT THE TIME, the Wings were NOT "better in the Standings". They were no better than 9th when they faced these Teams. ALL were below the Wings when they faced off against them. All but Phoenix, Colorado, and Chicago.

You're going to sit there and type that "with the parity in the League being what it is", that there is little to no difference between the San Jose Sharks and the St. Louis Blues?

That the level of competition when facing the New Jersey Devils is comparable to that when facing the Columbus Blue Jackets.

Yes, there's "parity" in the League. But to state that there's "only 11 pts" separating the BEST Teams in the League from the rest of the pack is utterly ridiculous, AND disingenuous.

There are only TEN points separating the Wings from the Edmonton Oilers. Are the Edmonton Oilers "only 10 points" worse than the Wings? STANDINGS ASIDE? The Oil are five Games BELOW .500, and STILL "only 10 pts" behind the Wings.

Toronto is only SEVEN points behind the Wings. Are THEY "almost as good" as the Wings?

Give your head a shake.

That's not what I'm saying at all, and never did... don't put words in my mouth.

Atlanta has one of the most potent offenses in the NHL right now and Dallas AND Vancouver are still very competitive teams that could easily give SJ, Chicago, Washington or Pittsburgh a run for their money any night of the week and THAT is where the parity comes into play, so to just write off his performance as him being "micro-managed" is a fallacy as well... you're acting as though I said "HEY EVERYONE, WE HAVE THE NEXT BRODEUR!!!" - He has been solid and deserves his recent praise for his recent play, but until he can prove it consistently and over a long term, he hasn't indeed proven himself completely, I'm just pointing out that you don't have to undersell him either to counteract the people here overselling him...

[gcom007 1,465]

He is playing good considering the circumstances, he was shaky to start but he is solid now, I didn't expect much from him coming in but who knows, maybe he is the #1 goalie we would use down the road, and perhaps he will stick with it once we are healthy

He was shaky at the start when the team in front of him wasn't giving either Howard or Osgood a chance to win. I don't think you can hold October over either Osgood or Howard's head. Osgood played far better than the rest of the team most of the time and Howard played absolutely fine for a rookie goalie in his first real season of NHL hockey. His "shakiness" was amplified tremendously by the teams horrendous play.

However, I still stand by the idea that we need a more balanced rotation down the stretch. As well as Howard's played, he still has some significant elements of his game that need tightening up. More often than not thus far, he's gotten lucky but we've seen the weaknesses exploited (Dallas loss......) and sooner or later they're going to catch up to him more often if he doesn't straighten them out. I think at this point, he would be better served by a few less starts which amount to fewer opportunities for his confidence to be shaken and a bit more hunger to "earn" starts.

Generally, I really like what we've seen so far, but I just worry that we might be setting him up for issues down the stretch the way things have been going. He doesn't need the opportunity to fall into a slump. That would not be ideal for a rookie goalie who's had a troubled development path and a crowd of doubters all around him.

It's not rocket science, but this one's totally on Babcock either way it goes. To this day however, I believe that his number one weakness as a coach is his goalie management. I hope it works out for the best for Howard, as the kid's proven that he's got the tools and proven a lot so far. He deserves a chance to let his head catch up to his body, his numbers and the role of an NHL goalie.

And he's earned our patience.

More on Howard and the goaltending: http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62194

[gcom007 1,465]

Please, steve.....puhlease.

For the record....

AT THE TIME, the Wings were NOT "better in the Standings". They were no better than 9th when they faced these Teams. ALL were below the Wings when they faced off against them. All but Phoenix, Colorado, and Chicago.

You're going to sit there and type that "with the parity in the League being what it is", that there is little to no difference between the San Jose Sharks and the St. Louis Blues?

That the level of competition when facing the New Jersey Devils is comparable to that when facing the Columbus Blue Jackets.

Yes, there's "parity" in the League. But to state that there's "only 11 pts" separating the BEST Teams in the League from the rest of the pack is utterly ridiculous, AND disingenuous.

There are only TEN points separating the Wings from the Edmonton Oilers. Are the Edmonton Oilers "only 10 points" worse than the Wings? STANDINGS ASIDE? The Oil are five Games BELOW .500, and STILL "only 10 pts" behind the Wings.

Toronto is only SEVEN points behind the Wings. Are THEY "almost as good" as the Wings?

Give your head a shake.

I agree with what you're saying about the difference in quality. That's absolutely true and it's tough for anyone to logically suggest that Howard has been getting the toughest starts thus far. He's definitely benefited from playing weaker teams.

However...

I still don't think it really takes away from what he's done, but then again, I'm not suggesting he's been the greatest goalie in the world or a rookie of the year candidate. I'm satisfied with the fact that he's proven that he can play and win in the NHL. He's earned his shot to hang around for awhile. But in my mind, the opposite of that is him blowing it early and Holland shipping him out and signing a veteran backup to help down the stretch. He's proven thus far that we don't need to resort to that less than ideal option.

Goalies come and go way too fast and frequently in the NHL for anyone to get too worked up about Howard. He's done well, but everyone, management included in my mind, would do well to temper their expectations and let him slip back into more of a backup/LEARNING mode. He's proven he can play. He physically is capable of using his size/body and technique to win games in the NHL.

But the mental game for a goalie trumps all, and that takes a lot of time to develop and can easily be shaken. It doesn't help that it's easy for everyone, including management to get too excited about a young, hot goalie. Then they get played too much, too fast.

And alas, that's why you see so many young goalies shine for a season and slip into mediocrity. Too much pressure, too fast.

Even Osgood who has proven so much now in his career was a victim of this. Aside from the fact that Osgood is a rare cool head in a position typically dominated by borderline-maniacal characters, I think you've got to give a tremendous amount of credit to Mike Vernon for that. If he hadn't come in after Osgood's rookie season, particularly considering Osgood's utterly demoralizing game 7 blunder that cost the Wings the series against San Jose, I think Osgood likely would not have turned into the goalie he has become. A cool, smart and steady head can oftentimes overcome physical limitations. Osgood's not a big guy but he's smart and he's cool headed. It's been the key to his success.

So naturally, you've got to think it's great that Osgood's hear for Howard.

But realistically, Howard's got better physical tools than Osgood to work with. He's got a big body and if he takes the time to micro-manage his game and clean up some of the rough edges that are there, he'll have the physical tools to be an NHL starter and a successful one at that for a long time. And if he learns as much about the day to day grind and mental game as he can from Osgood in the next 2-3 years (I think Osgood will sign a 2-3 year extension next season) and stays with this Wings team, he'll likely have a good, maybe even great career.

But again, he's done nothing yet besides proving that he deserves a shot at getting there as opposed to simply being booted out of town as soon as a veteran backup option surfaced. But as I've said, I'm rather worried that we're putting too much on him too quick, unnecessarily at that, and I do hope it slows down a bit. Osgood can handle it either way it goes no doubt, but Osgood's going to retire sooner or later, and I just think we'd do well to give his replacement time to grow into the role of a starter over the next 2-3 years so he might too be able to have what it takes to have a long CAREER in the NHL. I'm sick of the "flash in the pan" goalie mentality that has doomed so many other teams.

In Osgood lies a blueprint for what it takes to be a successful CAREER NHL goalie. You don't sit on the verge of 400 career wins by accident. On the Red Wings, with a guy like Osgood to mentor him, Jimmy Howard has what it takes to live up and even exceed the Osgood blueprint. Again, I just hope they give him a FAIR and REASONABLE chance as opposed to whimsically gambling in the short term.