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Cleary, Bertuzzi, Hudler and Franzen


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#61 Doc Holliday

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:50 AM

What's frustrating is that this guy has all the tools in the world to be an elite forward yet he doesn't have the heart or psyche to be that forward. It's almost like he took less money to remain a wing, float around and underachieve. Maybe I have an unrealistic assessment of his abilities (ala Dustin Penner's amazing playoff run?), but I think not.


He has the size and shot. His moves are very deliberate and in all honesty not world-class. His defensive skills are fair. He is not a fast skater. Also his ability to protect the puck on the boards is fairly weak.

I don't know where people are getting this idea that he has the tools to be an elite talent. Even when he had the work ethic and linemates on both sides of him and not just one, he scored 34 goals. He is a good goal scorer. He is not an elite goal scorer.

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#62 Crymson

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:32 AM

What's frustrating is that this guy has all the tools in the world to be an elite forward yet he doesn't have the heart or psyche to be that forward. It's almost like he took less money to remain a wing, float around and underachieve. Maybe I have an unrealistic assessment of his abilities (ala Dustin Penner's amazing playoff run?), but I think not.


When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?

#63 clutchngrab

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:28 PM

When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?


With Edmonton a few years back. Right before Burke, then GM of Anaheim, gave him a RFA offer. That little spat was very entertaining.
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#64 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?

Amazing is overstating it, but he looked very good in the playoffs his first two seasons in the league. Winning the Cup with Anaheim his second. I guess that's when he decided he could stop trying, because he's been an underachiever most of the time since.

When the Kings traded for him (and his big contract) I was hoping he could be some surprising reclamation project. Alas, he still works about as hard as Franzen on his off nights, minus the scoring touch.

#65 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:39 AM

Oh Cleary... Oh Danny Boy...

Would it be such a bad idea if he sat and healed up for a little bit or is it really better for him physically to keep playing through this injury?

#66 kipwinger

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:16 PM

Oh Cleary... Oh Danny Boy...

Would it be such a bad idea if he sat and healed up for a little bit or is it really better for him physically to keep playing through this injury?


I agree with you. Unlike many on here, I don't think Cleary is past it, or washed up, or whatever. I think he's just been playing hurt for a really long time and I agree that it would probably be better for him to sit right now rather than try to struggle through it and be ineffective.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#67 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:22 PM

I agree with you. Unlike many on here, I don't think Cleary is past it, or washed up, or whatever. I think he's just been playing hurt for a really long time and I agree that it would probably be better for him to sit right now rather than try to struggle through it and be ineffective.


Well I'm seriously wondering about it. I really don't know. In the crazy world of professional sports, perhaps the best thing for him is to keep playing. He might be thinking that rest won't really heal him up much more significantly so he might as well play. Again, I'm really not sure.

#68 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

why are some people hating on franzen?? if he plays a full season hes a 30 goal guy , look around the league and theres not to many 30+ goal scorers these days.... and more importantly he shows up in the playoffs when it counts

hudler after last season , i was willing to get rid of him has come back this year and is on pace for like 25 goals , id say keep him but im sure he will get bigger money offers from some team , probably 4+ a season , its time to let him go and bring up nyquist and others which is why for the life of me i cant understand why the wings resigned bertuzzi , we need to get some of the kids to come up and play with some veterans while they are still here so they can learn

cleary's been hurt so im gonna take it easy on him i think he has alot more to offer than hes been giving us this season , that being said considering his salary he'd be number 1 guy id trade if we needed cap room

on a different note id love it if we made an exception and gave dick axelsson a shot next year , at least a 10 game trial and a real shot not put him on the 4th line, hes got all the offensive tools to be a real point producer and goal scorer, his defensive play isnt great but i think he could learn from z and others

franzen datsyuk nyquist
filppula zetterberg axelsson .. top 6 next year ... tatar and andersson will be up in 2013-2014 , we gotta start blending in the kids

Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 14 March 2012 - 11:06 PM.


#69 Aussie_Wing

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

Cleary-Franzen-Bertuzzi.

Is Babcock trolling us?

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#70 Majsheppard

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:31 PM

I honestly wanted Franzen to be the only one of these guys on our team next year. The Bert signing pissed me off, and it just feels like on any given night two of them can be overcome by the team... I would like it if we only had one of them and I think Franzen is the best to keep in the long run.
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Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#71 kipwinger

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:10 AM

why are some people hating on franzen?? if he plays a full season hes a 30 goal guy , look around the league and theres not to many 30+ goal scorers these days.... and more importantly he shows up in the playoffs when it counts

hudler after last season , i was willing to get rid of him has come back this year and is on pace for like 25 goals , id say keep him but im sure he will get bigger money offers from some team , probably 4+ a season , its time to let him go and bring up nyquist and others which is why for the life of me i cant understand why the wings resigned bertuzzi , we need to get some of the kids to come up and play with some veterans while they are still here so they can learn

cleary's been hurt so im gonna take it easy on him i think he has alot more to offer than hes been giving us this season , that being said considering his salary he'd be number 1 guy id trade if we needed cap room

on a different note id love it if we made an exception and gave dick axelsson a shot next year , at least a 10 game trial and a real shot not put him on the 4th line, hes got all the offensive tools to be a real point producer and goal scorer, his defensive play isnt great but i think he could learn from z and others

franzen datsyuk nyquist
filppula zetterberg axelsson .. top 6 next year ... tatar and andersson will be up in 2013-2014 , we gotta start blending in the kids


Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#72 b.shanafan14

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:19 AM

Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!

I thought he was the Wings' franchise goal-scorer? I must have read that contract he signed a few years ago wrong... Its OK, he is still leading the team in goals. And White has the best plus-minus, or at least he did... :)

Johan Franzen: Perennial 25-30 goal-scorer. Who wouldn't want that for 11 years?

#73 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:25 AM

Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!



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as i said if he plays a full schedule hes a 30 goal guy

Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 15 March 2012 - 12:28 AM.


#74 b.shanafan14

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:38 AM

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings NHL 72 27

2008-09 Detroit Red Wings NHL 71 34

2009-10 Detroit Red Wings NHL 27 10

2010-11 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 28

2011-12 Detroit Red Wings NHL 70 26


as i said if he plays a full schedule hes a 30 goal guy

And yet, his goals-per-game and points-per-game continue to drop season after season, peaking (shock) in the last contract year he'll ever see. He also no longer plays even halfway physical or does much fore/backchecking. He's a one-note song, and its losing tempo. His career arc is looking like "utility player breaks through as a scorer before losing his utility and failing to score".
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#75 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:01 AM

Raw stats don't mean anything. Just looking at Franzen's numbers makes you think "oh yeah ok he seems to do good he deserves a huge contracnt"

But if you actually watch the games you can clearly see he is pretty much a no show. He doesn't do ANYTHING most of the time. Just skates around minding his own business. And all of those goals he scores, are usually done at pointless times. IE Last night when we were already down 2 (or 3 I can't remember) goals to the Kings. Or better yet when we're up 2 or 3 goals.

Playoff preformer or not, I want you to play your heart out EVERY TIME you step out onto the ice. Not just in the post season. Because once you start trending in a direction you typically keep following it. And right now Franzen is NOT trending in a positive direction in any facet of the game.

#76 Doc Holliday

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:58 AM

And yet, his goals-per-game and points-per-game continue to drop season after season, peaking (shock) in the last contract year he'll ever see. He also no longer plays even halfway physical or does much fore/backchecking. He's a one-note song, and its losing tempo. His career arc is looking like "utility player breaks through as a scorer before losing his utility and failing to score".


So you mean to tell me it is likely he won't get either two goals or two points to pass his last season goal/point totals?

Come on. Also this is is second full season after his contract was signed, so saying he is expected to continue to drop in production (when he is on pace to surpass both of last years totals in goals and points) is short-sighted.

I thought he was the Wings' franchise goal-scorer? I must have read that contract he signed a few years ago wrong... Its OK, he is still leading the team in goals. And White has the best plus-minus, or at least he did... :)

Johan Franzen: Perennial 25-30 goal-scorer. Who wouldn't want that for 11 years?


What franchise goal scorer gets paid $4 million a season?

Edited by Doc Holliday, 15 March 2012 - 02:59 AM.

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#77 b.shanafan14

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:02 AM

So you mean to tell me it is likely he won't get either two goals or two points to pass his last season goal/point totals?

Come on. Also this is is second full season after his contract was signed, so saying he is expected to continue to drop in production (when he is on pace to surpass both of last years totals in goals and points) is short-sighted.

---

What franchise goal scorer gets paid $4 million a season?

I was referring to per game stats, not total stats. More games are bound to equal more points, but would you really say that we should be expecting one-dimensional play with so-so stats from a guy we have signed for 11 years? As I said, he is bringing less and less beyond his scoring, and his scoring is not to par. The thought in 2009 when they signed him for 11 years was that he was trending up, not down. Based on his per game stats, everyone rightfully expected 40 goals and 68 points through 82 games. Compare this season and last to his contract year, its a pretty sharp decline statistically, which is the basis for most folks defense of him. Add in that he floats incessantly and works less every night while climbing on the back of Datsyuk to do all the heavy lifting. He is a passenger and hasn't stepped up jack with his team down.

And no, I wouldn't expect a franchise goal-scorer to be paid $4mil/season, I would expect him to be signed to a franchised-contract of say, 11 years, and I'd expect him to be getting paid around $5.25mil/season on top of such ludicrous job security, which he is. Folks need to quit looking at the cap-hit as a wash right now, because he is already nearing the edge of his usefulness at that price, and I can't imagine he'll be able sustain this little plateau for much longer given the his continual decline since signing his contract.

Lets say he is playing to his cap-hit. Right now he is getting paid $5.25mil/season now and playing like a $4mil/season. The fun part? 4 years from now when his play has continued to decline, same story $5mil/season and a $4mil/season cap-hit. And in 6 years when his pay finally starts to dip, still a $4mil/season cap-hit.

The guy getting worse doesn't bode well. His statistics are not up to par with a player granted the contract he was, and yet they are the only defensible position for most. Watch the games and its an entirely different story, moving from decently mediocre to abysmal. And above all else, his attitude is s*** when he can't be bothered to get up for games when his team is down and dropping quickly in the standings.

Edited by b.shanafan14, 15 March 2012 - 07:05 AM.


#78 nuts2u

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

I was referring to per game stats, not total stats. More games are bound to equal more points, but would you really say that we should be expecting one-dimensional play with so-so stats from a guy we have signed for 11 years? As I said, he is bringing less and less beyond his scoring, and his scoring is not to par. The thought in 2009 when they signed him for 11 years was that he was trending up, not down. Based on his per game stats, everyone rightfully expected 40 goals and 68 points through 82 games. Compare this season and last to his contract year, its a pretty sharp decline statistically, which is the basis for most folks defense of him. Add in that he floats incessantly and works less every night while climbing on the back of Datsyuk to do all the heavy lifting. He is a passenger and hasn't stepped up jack with his team down.

And no, I wouldn't expect a franchise goal-scorer to be paid $4mil/season, I would expect him to be signed to a franchised-contract of say, 11 years, and I'd expect him to be getting paid around $5.25mil/season on top of such ludicrous job security, which he is. Folks need to quit looking at the cap-hit as a wash right now, because he is already nearing the edge of his usefulness at that price, and I can't imagine he'll be able sustain this little plateau for much longer given the his continual decline since signing his contract.

Lets say he is playing to his cap-hit. Right now he is getting paid $5.25mil/season now and playing like a $4mil/season. The fun part? 4 years from now when his play has continued to decline, same story $5mil/season and a $4mil/season cap-hit. And in 6 years when his pay finally starts to dip, still a $4mil/season cap-hit.

The guy getting worse doesn't bode well. His statistics are not up to par with a player granted the contract he was, and yet they are the only defensible position for most. Watch the games and its an entirely different story, moving from decently mediocre to abysmal. And above all else, his attitude is s*** when he can't be bothered to get up for games when his team is down and dropping quickly in the standings.



People that keep bleating about that effing cap hit piss me off almost as much as watching Lazydick stroll around the soft areas of the ice looking for an easy goal. f***** is getting paid 5.25 MILLION BUCKS and anyone that thinks 5.25M is really only 3.95M then please come see me as I have a house in Forida I will sell you in a heartbeat.

Edited by nuts2u, 15 March 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#79 kipwinger

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:50 AM

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings NHL 72 27

2008-09 Detroit Red Wings NHL 71 34

2009-10 Detroit Red Wings NHL 27 10

2010-11 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 28

2011-12 Detroit Red Wings NHL 70 26


as i said if he plays a full schedule hes a 30 goal guy


Very few "30 goal guys" play all 82 games every year. Rick Nash is a 30 goal guy and he's only played a full season once. Here's a link to what a 30 goal guy looks like. Certainly not Franzen, I don't care how many games he plays. http://espn.go.com/n.../1569/rick-nash

Correction, Nash has never played a full season and yet averages over 30 a season. That's a 30 goal guy. Last I knew we didn't determine a guy's worth by his projected stats.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 March 2012 - 09:39 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#80 Doc Holliday

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:30 PM

I was referring to per game stats, not total stats. More games are bound to equal more points, but would you really say that we should be expecting one-dimensional play with so-so stats from a guy we have signed for 11 years? As I said, he is bringing less and less beyond his scoring, and his scoring is not to par. The thought in 2009 when they signed him for 11 years was that he was trending up, not down. Based on his per game stats, everyone rightfully expected 40 goals and 68 points through 82 games. Compare this season and last to his contract year, its a pretty sharp decline statistically, which is the basis for most folks defense of him. Add in that he floats incessantly and works less every night while climbing on the back of Datsyuk to do all the heavy lifting. He is a passenger and hasn't stepped up jack with his team down.

Why would you expect 40 goals out of a forward who only managed 34 on a stacked offensive roster?

That's crap, and with the way offensively the league has been trending downwards you shouldn't expect that of him anyway. Marian Hossa is a PERENIALL 40 goal scorer and isn't even at 30 yet. And before you get all huffy, I'm not comparing the two. Just saying that goal scoring as a whole is down.

And no, I wouldn't expect a franchise goal-scorer to be paid $4mil/season, I would expect him to be signed to a franchised-contract of say, 11 years, and I'd expect him to be getting paid around $5.25mil/season on top of such ludicrous job security, which he is. Folks need to quit looking at the cap-hit as a wash right now, because he is already nearing the edge of his usefulness at that price, and I can't imagine he'll be able sustain this little plateau for much longer given the his continual decline since signing his contract.

It annoys me when people talk about salary. How is that relevant to team success again? Ilitch owns the 4th most valuable franchise in the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE (behind Toronto, Montreal, and New York) and you are telling me that him slightly overpaying on salary is going to hurt him financially? Jokes.

Lets say he is playing to his cap-hit. Right now he is getting paid $5.25mil/season now and playing like a $4mil/season. The fun part? 4 years from now when his play has continued to decline, same story $5mil/season and a $4mil/season cap-hit. And in 6 years when his pay finally starts to dip, still a $4mil/season cap-hit.

You say "continue to decline" as if he has declined. He is paid to score. And he is scoring. Babcock chooses not to use him on the PK (he was even with Hossa in 09 in PK time on his 34 goal run) so I'm not sure how he can do much about that.

The guy getting worse doesn't bode well. His statistics are not up to par with a player granted the contract he was, and yet they are the only defensible position for most. Watch the games and its an entirely different story, moving from decently mediocre to abysmal. And above all else, his attitude is s*** when he can't be bothered to get up for games when his team is down and dropping quickly in the standings.

Tell me when he stops playing up to his contract, and when the cap is 5-10 million higher than it is now. Then you can talk about how overpaid the guy is.

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