kipwinger

Fact: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Kronwall, Franzen, Quincey, Eriksson, Helm, Howard, Hudler, Abdelkader, Smith, and Nyquist were all scouted and drafted by people not named Scotty Bowman. Datsyuk was the first of those listed to be drafted (1998). Ken Holland was named sole GM of the team in 1997. Scotty Bowman didn't have s*** to do with it. Nobody is trying to undermine what Scotty did for the team, but to suggest that Holland has not drafted anyone worth a damn during his tenure, and that all the success the team has seen under Holland should really be given to Bowman is retarded. Bowman was the GM from 1993-1997. Here's a quick look at his most prominant drafts: Anders Eriksson Norm Maracle Mathieu Dandenault Tomas Holmstrom Yuri Butsayev Additionally, Yzerman, Osgood, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Primeau, McCarty, Lidstrom, and Lapointe were all drafted before Scotty joined the organization. Your honor, I rest my case.

What a useful post. Thanks for the explanation and the link...that was totally awesome of you to be so thorough.

wait, there's an ignore feature? I had no idea.

Most of this is completely B.S. Scotty Bowman, as a coach (and especially as an advisor), didn't have anything to do with who got scouted, rated, and ultimately drafted by the Wings. Giving Bowman and not Holland credit for finding and drafting the likes Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. is completely absurd. Unless Scotty was secretly flying over to Sweden and Russia to catch games, I'd say his role was rather limited. As a coach he probably did play a fairly large part in what free agents were signed and who made it through camp and all that. But this nonsense might as well give him credit for sunshine.

After all the lauding and back slapping the fans, organization, and sports media have given the Wild since the Parise Suter acquisions I started to sit down and really think about how dangerous these moves really made them. Certainly all the reactionaries around the hockey world have already penciled them as one of the top teams in the west. But anymore, being a top team doesn't cut it, you have to be elite, and in my opinion...elite they aren't. Obviously building a roster is an evolutionary thing, and I'm certainly not claiming to know much about their prospects and young talent, but for what it's worth I can think of at least 5 teams in the West scarier than the Wild. San Jose and Chicago are better up front than Minny with as good or better defenses, but with worse goaltending. Vancouver and Los Angeles are better in every regard. St. Louis has a better defense and goaltending, but doesn't have the offensive punch. As for Nashville and Detroit...well, let's just wait and see on those. So here's my question, is anybody else not afraid of the big bad wolf?

Seriously, there's still time for the Captain to bail us out on this one.

I don't think he's dead weight, but I will go on record as saying that I would prefer him on the third line, where he's a mismatch against almost any team in the league.

I don't think it's so much that you've added anything, but rather that you've changed. It certainly doesn't work in every case, but if you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn't work, then there's really no point in sticking with it. Years ago, the Wings traded a first round pick, the best power forward they had, and a sure fire Hall of Famer for Brendan Shanahan, not because they were getting the best player in the world, but because they were getting a quality (and different) look after years of trying the same things without success. I think that the team is in a similar situation now. Obviously, the talent we have now is good. I'd love to keep Flip or Franzen or Cleary or Bert or whomever, if possible. But we keep trying that same lineup, and we keep getting the same results. Maybe we don't have to constantly upgrade, maybe a lateral move (just for the sake of change) is what we really need. I'm obviously not an NHL general manager, but there's a point where you have to admit that the status quo is just not working anymore. Perhaps that time is now.

In my opinion we don't need a reclaimation project on defense unless we completely overload on offense to compensate for the potentially weak D. Otherwise, I think it's a smart move to trade for an established, top two, defenseman and then sign the available forwards to help. This is why the Sameulsson no trade clause doesn't make sense to me. If they were planning on 1) allowing the young guys to take a larger role or 2) trading the acquired assets for a high end piece, then giving Sammy an NTC doesn't make sense. I really think that one of Sammy, Cleary, or Bert is still going to be in the top six, in which case our top six is still going to lack the kind of depth that it has consistently lacked for three years. I'm drunk right now, so I'm willing to admit that my exasperation is in full tilt, but I still see the same problems that have existed for a few years in the forward corps, and now we have a weaker defense to boot. Unless other moves are made, and legitimate game changing ones at that, I have no reason to believe that our team has improved one iota, in spite of all this money we've been saving. Years ago I was in the army, and one of the valuable lessons I learned while there was that any action is better than inaction. If you do something and it's a mistake, then you learn from it and move on. If you do something and it works, then you learn from the success and duplicate. The worst thing that you can do is nothing, in which case you neither learn from your failures, nor your successes, and you're stuck treading water, constantly waiting for some outside force to come along and show you the right path. That outside factor will never show up. Do something, or else stagnate. I hope to god that Ken Holland and the rest of the top brass understand that same lesson.

While I was ideally trying to turn this thread into something other than a "What's Next for Holland" discussion, I'm pleased that I've finally started a thread that has actually held a discussion for more than a page. Self high five *******!!!!!!!

If this is true I'm going to throw up. Now watch as Semin puts up great numbers because of the quality play of his centermen, just like James Neal did last year. Oh if only we had high quality centermen who could consistently improve the play of mid level wingers...oh wait...ugh.

I'll take that bet. They were last in the league in "goals for". So, unless Zach Parise scores 40 goals and 100 pts. (which he's never done in his career), they haven't really improved that much. Suter helps the defense, which was middle of the road at best.

I'm optimistically hoping this doesn't happen. However, in the dark recesses of my brain I'm preparing myself for this with extreme frustration.

I don't understand how Holland and company can "go out of their comfort zone" for Jordinf****** Tootoo, but don't seem to be willing to do it for a guy with Semin's talent. I realize that Tootoo is cheaper and is signed short term, and I'm really hoping it's the term and price that are holding up a deal with Semin and not some sort of b.s. concern about his character or motivation or whatever. Get this done and sign Doan if possible and there's a real possibility that our forward corps looks like this next season: Note: numbers indicate a conservative estimate for goals from each player. Semin (25) - Datsyuk (20) - Franzen (25) Filppula (15) - Zetterberg (25) - Doan (20) Cleary (15) - Helm (5) - Samuelsson (15) Bertuzzi (10) - Abby (5) - Miller (10)/Tootoo (5)/Eaves (10) Brunner (?) However if Emmerton put up 6 or 7 then I don't think it's unrealistic to expect at least that much from Brunner. Additionally, it's obvious that there are a ton of extra forwards so I anticipate a trade on defense where possible.

I'd imagine with losing Connor, and potentially Janik and Exelby, that Brunnstrom will be back. I don't see the 50 contract limit being a factor here.

How long has it been since we had a guy who could pick the corners? 2009...Hossa? He only had a measly 40 goals that season and drew enough defensive attention to allow Franzen a career year. However, I don't care if Semin came here and didn't put up 40. If he had 25, Franzen had 25, Datsyuk had 20 and about 50 assists, I'd be thrilled. How is that not better than Datsyuk at 20, Franzen at 28, and Bertuzzi at 14? Plus, this allows us to put Bertuzzi and Sammy, or Bertuzzi and Cleary on the third line, which is a mismatch against most teams in the league. Finally, as I've said all along. The criticisms of Semin are more appropriately criticisms of Bruce Boudreau, under who's tutelage each and every single member of the Washington Capitals could be termed a "lazy, unmotivated, inconsistent, under achiever". I like this signing...especially at this point.

Jesus, I went camping all weekend in the UP and this is what I come back to? No Suter, no Parise, no high end talent of any type. But Mikael f****** Samuelsson and Jordin Tootoo! What the hell happened? I hope to God Kenny has a trick or two up his sleeve because there is no way in hell that Mikael Samuelsson and Jordin Tootoo should be wearing Red Wings sweaters next season.

Now that I think about this I'd trade either Franzen or Filppula in some kind of package for Nash, then sign the best available winger in free agency and go with that. Also, I really don't think it's that unrealistic to think that Columbus would bite on a Franzen trade. You've giving up a lot of goals in Nash and would definitely want some coming back the other way. Franzen is going to consistently give you 25-30 goals and his cap hit is super reasonable. With the right package I think you could land Nash for that, but for whatever reason the Wings have some misplaced committment to Franzen that they won't get past.

Right before you posted this I was imagining a Latendresse-Filppula-Doan line. That would be hard to play against. In reality though, I've generally thought highly of Latendresse, but he's CONSTANTLY injured.

Any rational GM would need Flip as the center piece of any trade with the Wings. Therefore, Scott Howson would obviously want Franzen.

Fair enough, the way you wrote it made it look like Miller and Mursak listed as the 13th and 14th forwards, and I clearly didn't read the disclaimer above the layout. My bad for jumping to conclusions.

The only thing Gaustad does that Justin Abdelkader doesn't do just as well is win faceoffs. I have no idea why this guy makes the money he does.

I'm going to call you out here, but in fairness this is a gripe that I have with almost every line thread on this site. That's my disclaimer to here goes... Drew Miller is a MUCH better forward than Justin Abdelkader. By almost every measure he out performs Abby. I like Abby, I want him on the team and all. But why is Miller always the odd man out on these line combos? I certainly hope it's not because "Abby's a big bodied guy and one of the few on the team that is physical" because he really isn't that big, or that physical. Please explain your rationale for me. Again, I'm only calling you out because this is the most recent time I've seen this, but you're by no means the only person who's done it.

This has got to be an especially tough pill to swallow for you, given that it pretty much ensures that Quincey will be re-signed now .

Well here's hoping it goes the way of Brunnstrom, some big fish in a small pond who's in for a rude awakening. It would definitely be pretty sweet to see him begging for a pro try-out in a few years. In retrospect he was probably bad news the second he felt like he was too good to play with All-Stars, Olympians, MVP's, and Stanley Cup Champions like Getzlaf, Ryan, Hiller, and Perry.