kipwinger

Haha Only by people more interested in being argumentative than respectfully discussing the many nuances of the game we all love. There can't be too many of those around here can there? Ugh. Guilty.

Anybody heard any more about this? Has this kid accepted any of the offers or is it still up in the air?

Do me a favor and do a quick check of Hossa's numbers and then get back to me. The guy had 80+ points for four straight seasons with two different teams. He peaked at 100 points in 2006. In the six years since that time he's never broken 80 and has generally been in the 50-60 points range. It's not like he's having a down year. By his own standard he's had six down years in a row with three different teams. Your assertion that somehow the team is to blame for his decrease in production is absurd. When Zach Parise plays for three different teams over the course of six years and never reaches his current average then I'll say he's past his prime too. Until then, keep reaching. Note: The first two 80+ points seasons for Hossa were with the Senators. The first year (2003) they won the President's Trophy and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals. The following year they were the fifth seed in the East. So it's not like he was playing for a s***ty team.

Some of them might surprise us, but I'm going to say that Jurco and Smith have the right combination size, speed, and skill to be real good at the NHL level. Nyquist and Jarnkrok have the skill but it remains to be seen whether or not they'll be able to beef up enough to be effective in the league. The rest aren't far enough along in their development for me to say one way or the other.

ok, so according to that logic Rick Nash would score less for Detroit and Parise would score more if he played Columbus. And you're basing this all on Robert Lang. Gotcha.

So let me get this straight, you expect a player's numbers to decrease when they get on a better team? So if the played on the Red Wings a guy like Zach Parise would only score about 25 goals a season while if Johan Franzen would score about 40 on a s***ty team? Good call.

Lolz.

Johnz96: I was going to spend all sorts of time explaining to you why Hossa is no longer the 35-40 goal scorer that he used to be, and how that fact says nothing about his general usefulness to his team. Instead I decided to just give you this "Jump to Conclusions Mat". A meme that I'm going to repeat from now on whenever somebody reads a post of mine and immediately takes it completely out of context and starts throwing a fit.

I'm going to play a fun game I learned in college... Premise 1: Nick Listrom has been the best defenseman in the world for roughly 15 years. Premise 2: The Red Wings have not won 15 straight Stanley Cups. Conclusion: You don't need the best defenseman in the world to win the Stanley Cup. Please stop putting so much stock in this Suter thing.

Didn't you know that unless every player on the farm is comparable to Ovechkin or Stamkos then they're terrible and should immediately be waived and replaced via free agency? Wait, you knew that right? For example: Tatar isn't Datsyuk so he's worthless. In the minds of the simple that's pretty much exactly how it works on this forum. Good luck in your future endeavors, but please, don't be optimistic or else you'll be considered a self diluted homer with no real hockey sense and only a messianic faith in Ken Holland.

I agree with your points Harold and Buppy, my point was not to raise Kindl up to be a major player or anything. I just think it's funny that for the two years I've been on this forum Ericsson has been blamed with everything that other than what Hudler was blamed for. But now, all of the sudden, Ericsson has been rehabilitated (so to speak) and everyone acts like Kindl is the biggest f*** up in the world. The guy has seen less ice time than anybody on the team except Nyquist, Emmerton, Smith, and Mursak. Don't get me wrong, I think Smith probably has a bigger up side, which is why I've said that Kindl is expendable on other threads, but I think it's absurd the amount of scorn the kid gets considering he's not a vital part of the team and as a seventh defenseman in his first full year he was only supposed to eat up minutes and hopefully show that he's got more promise than what he's showing now. Seems like the trend here is to pick the guy who's game is the weakest and then start heaping s*** on him as if he's the reason we got bounced from the playoffs, and then when it turns out he's better than anybody gives him credit for...pick the next guy. Obviously Ericsson is a better d-man, I wasn't trying to compare. I was just suggesting that maybe it's absurd for him to be the goat as well.

Didn't we already play the Norwwegian defenseman game anyway? All kidding aside, anybody know why this guy never even played a game for the big club, he's not a terrible hockey player? Note: Nevermind, just remembered that getting rid of Leino was all about clearing up roster space.

Is Kindl officially the new Ericsson now? LGW defensive whipping boy? He was a rookie last year. He had about 8 points and was plus 6 or something like that. That's not all that bad for a seventh defenseman, can we please just wait a year or two before we feed him to the wolves? Remember how it took about five full seasons (and Babock saying how valuable he was) before everybody got off Ericsson's back. Kindl's got a long way to go for sure, but at least give the kid the opportunity to get better.

Parise, Bryan Allen, Semin if no Parise, Matt Carle if no Quincey.

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong: Didn't six years pass between the Cups in 2002 and 2008? Didn't we see a ton of player turnover, including key players like Shanahan, Yzerman, and Fedorov? Didn't we get bounced from the playoffs early a few times in those six years? Didn't we make the playoffs every year in between based on the strength of the core? How many people were screaming doom during those six year? I've got to guess a whole lot of people were... Didn't we inevitably win another Cup in 2008 and make it to the Finals again in 2009, once our young talent developed and reached maturity? You can't win the Cup every year. You can't make the Conference Finals every year. The best you can do is make the playoffs every year, and once and a while make it over the top if an FA here or there, or a young rising star, makes a good team a great one. We've got the core. We make the playoffs every year. We've got good young talent developing, and money for a couple FA's. What decline? Edited: for typos...which are the bane of my existence.

At which point in my post did you mistakenly think I was suggesting that "the grass is greener"? I didn't say we should try to acquire him, I didn't say that I missed having him. I simply said that Perry, Getzlaf, and Lucic do not play the same type of game as Parise, Hossa, or Kovalchuk. I'm not really sure if you're this eager to disagree with someone, or you just didn't read anything I said closely enough, but again, I never suggesting anything about Hossa other than that he played a different game than those others. Obviously he's getting past his prime and doesn't score as much as he used to, but that doesn't change the type of player he is or how he approaches the game. You wouldn't say that Brett Hull wasn't a sniper anymore because his number trailed off at the end of his career, and you won't say it about Stamkos when his number inevitably trail off. Again, I'm dying to know: if Hossa isn't a goal scorer then what is he? A power forward? A playmaker? A defensive forward?

Again, I'm not knocking Perry. I'm just saying that if you want a "sniper" he's not the guy. He scores most of his goals down by the crease, and isn't known for having a particularly accurate or powerful shot from the perimeter. He's obviously a good player, but him and Iginla don't really play comparable games.

I never said he was the best at it in the League or anything, but he's generally considered a finisher rather than a playmaker or power forward. Largely based on his laser of a shot. He's scored 30+ goals seven times in his career and 40+ goals three times. Not exactly sure how you'd classify him?

You're right, we'd have to give A LOT to get them, probably a high end roster player (Flip), a prospect (Smith or Nyquist), and a first rounder to get Perry. Additionally, Perry isn't really a "sniper" but more of a power forward that scores from down low. I'm not saying he wouldn't be useful, but if you're looking for a sniper then forget Perry, Getzlaf, or Lucic because that's not the game they play. They are all essentially better versions of what Franzen was supposed to be. Again, not to say I don't think those guys are good, or that I wouldn't want them, but they aren't pure goal scorers in the Iginla, Parise, Hossa, Kovalchuk, mold.

No knock on Iginla, I think he's a great player and would love it if he were a free agent at the same time as Parise, which would help keep the prices down. But he's not, and I certainly don't want us to trade away assets. Addition without subtraction for this guy. We're already not deep enough according to Holland and Babcock, I don't see how trading anybody is going to help that.

Parise/Semin-Datsyuk-Franzen Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler/Nyquist Bert-Abby-Cleary Miller-Helm-Eaves Mursak Lidstrom-White Kronwall-Bryan Allen Ericsson-Quincey Smith or if Quincey doesn't come back... Lidstrom-Matt Carle Kronwall-Bryan Allen Ericsson-White Smith Howard McDonald Note: I've explained in the "Iginla" thread that I would only want Semin if we can't land Parise and we could get him on a one year contract for no higher than 4.5 million. What would our top six look like if we did this?

In an effort to get "bigger and tougher" who do you think we should get, and who do you think we should get rid of?

I don't think that comparing Semin to Franzen (as some often do) is very fair. I think he's more comparable to Alex Kovalev, in that he is a highly skilled yet very inconsistent winger who doesn't play a power forward's game (or isn't supposed to, as Franzen is). Kovalev remained that over the entirety of his career and so he was usually paid about 4-5 million a year and never topped 5 million. So far in his career Semin is the same sort of guy, and should get the same sort of contract...BUT, there's always the chance that it really was the organization he played for. Everyone knows Boudreau let the stars run wild out there. Always a chance Semin could be a reclamation project. I'd rather see the Wings chase Parise and lock down the top six for a while. But if they can't, and Semin could be had for 4-4.5 million SHORT TERM, then I'd do it. As a realist I'd expect about 50-60 points out of him, if I got more I'd be thrilled. Also, say what you want about his lazyness or whatever, but at 6'2, 215 lbs, shooting and skating ability, he's still much tougher to play against that Hudler, even if they put up the same point totals. No knock on Jiri, he works hard and had one hell of a season, has the intangibles, but doesn't have the same skill set.

That's what I'm saying, but I actually think it's a good thing. I REALLY don't want to see the Wings overspend on Suter given that I think depth in the top six is more of a problem, and the fact that Parise is a better forward than Suter is a defenseman. If we're going to be forced to overspend in a bidding war, I'd rather it be Parise. Defensively, I think we could make a couple of acquisitions that would help us out alot and not force us to overspend. Contingent on Lidstrom coming back, Quincey re-signing, and Stuart leaving I'd like to see this... Lidstrom-White Kronwall-Bryan Allen Ericsson-Quincey Smith or if Quincey doesn't come back then this... Lidstrom-Carle Kronwall-Brian Allen Ericsson-White Smith I really like Allen as a replacement for Stuart, they play a similar game and have similar skating ability, but Allen is bigger and stronger. I also like Carle in if Quincey doesn't want to stay, as he's got good offensive instincts, is bigger than White for the top pairing role, skates well, and can play big minutes.

fair enough, just wanted to follow your line of thinking.