krsmith17

Except Smith didn't get to play with Lidstrom... Instead, he played with the juggernaut Doug Janik that season... Oh what could have been if he were given that opportunity to play with Lidstrom though...

Well he had a great rookie season in Grand Rapids, and an even better sophomore season, finishing top 20 in defensive scoring, while playing less games than virtually everyone ahead of him. He finally got called up in November for injured Ian White, in which he played very well, and put up 2 assists in a short 3 game stint. Got sent down again when White returned to the lineup, and put up 10 goals, 27 points in 36 games for the Griffins. He then got called up for the rest of the season in late February, where he put up a goal and 5 points in 11 games, while playing very good hockey paired with Kronwall. The sky was the limit at this point in time. The following season he once again started in Grand Rapids (probably shouldn't have), despite being better than White, Lashoff, Quincey, Huskins, or whoever else was ahead of him. That may have shook him a little, but still managed to put up 5 goals, 20 points in 32 games for the Griffins. He got called up for the first time in January, to one of the worst defense corps we've seen in recent memory. This is the first year after Lidstrom retired and we had Kronwall, Ericsson, White, Kindl, Smith, Quincey, Lasoff, Colaiacovo. Smith wasn't given much help coming into that mess. I don't think it helped at all when Babcock tried to mold him into a defensive defenseman, playing penalty kill rather than power-play. This organization did have a tendency to make players think defense first, rather than allowing them to play to their strengths. If we kept our 2004 1st round pick, and taken Mike Green, maybe he would have gone the way of Smith years ago. Maybe not, but I highly doubt he would have had those 70+ point seasons. Maybe Smith would have turned out better if he were given a year or two to learn from Lidstrom. Maybe he would have been better if he were drafted by another team. Maybe he would have sucked more if either of these things happened. We have no idea. This is all conjecture, but for me, I don't believe a kid as skilled as Smith was destined to fail, having absolutely nothing to do with his surroundings. I've admitted in the past that he didn't do himself any favors, but I think the environment he was placed in, had a lot to do with why he turned out the way he did.

I can almost smell the 1st round draft pick...

I said before that Marchenko reminded me a lot of Ericsson, and man did he ever. Both drafted in the last round of their draft. Both inexplicably overhyped by Wings fans when they first entered the league. Big, stay at home defensemen that weren't particularly good at anything, other than taking up space on the ice, aka, getting in the way. Imagine if Marchenko had the opportunity to play with Lidstrom... We'd have both Ericsson and Marchenko locked up long term at a combined $10M... I'd prefer to imagine if Ericsson never had the opportunity to play with Lidstrom... Big E would probably be over in Sweden for the past several years, the same way Marchenko left for Russia...

No, you're not wrong at all, and I agree with pretty much everything you said here. No one's saying we can't rehash this. I don't mind talking about it at all. I just hate the "told ya so" attitude by some. It's childish, but then again, some users here are very childish, so whatever. I was completely wrong with the projection of Smith and Jurco, and I'm fine with that. But when I say that I think that was in large part due to the way they were handled at the beginning of their careers, and people say, "No, you're wrong. Our organization is perfect." That's what bothers the s*** out of me. I did say that Smith had top 4 potential, and he absolutely did. To say otherwise, is false. I also said that at one point in his career (didn't last long...) he was a top 4 puck moving defenseman, and I stand by that. You may disagree, and that's fine. What do I think of Smith at this point in his career? I think he's a guy that had all the tools, but was never able to put it all together. Was that all on him, or was it partially due to the way he was handled as an up and comer? I still think he was mishandled a little at the beginning of his pro career. Again, you may disagree, and that's totally fine. Same goes for Jurco. A kid with all the talent, but was never able to put it all together. I think Jurco not only had top 9 potential, but top 6 potential. Unfortunately for him, like Smith, he struggled, and lost all confidence in his game. Trying to completely change his game probably didn't help matters much though. So anyway, to answer your question, Smith is a bottom pair defenseman. Jurco may get another shot in the NHL, but will probably play another year in the AHL and head back over seas, where he will be a middle 6 forward. We won both of those trades. Good on Ken Holland. It's not revisiting arguments that is trolling, it's the way you go about it that people consider trolling. The bolded - Case in point. Again, I was wrong in their projection, but you can't say I'm wrong about a hypothetical, something no one will ever know for sure, aka, the reason they failed to reach their ceilings... There are countless factors that go into whether or not a player makes the NHL, and what kind of career they have if they do make it. One major factor in that in my opinion, is coaching. Another one would definitely be mental toughness. Two key factors as to why neither of the aforementioned carved out the type of careers that myself and so many others thought they would. The skill was there, therefore the potential was there. Unfortunately for us, they failed miserably... I'd once again say MOVE ON, but I'm sure you'll try your damndest to spin this to keep the argument going...

Yeah, Ericsson has been much better this season, the past few weeks in particular. I honestly thought this was a joke thread, in the same way someone just made a thread "3 goal Howard"... Ericsson isn't a "great" defenseman by any stretch, but he's far from this team's biggest issue right now.

I agree for the most past, and that's what I meant with Larkin and Mantha. The potential is there for both to be in that borderline elite class. I don't think there's any question that Mantha will be a top line winger, how good of a top line winger he can be, is still up in the air. As for Larkin, he will definitely be a top 6 center. Whether he becomes a very good 1C, or a great 2C is undetermined, hopefully the former. As for the bolded, I don't really buy into that. I think there are teams out there that are well set on the back end, but could use some help up front that would be interested in some of the pieces we have. Nyquist and Tatar still have trade value, but you're probably right in that they alone wouldn't get a high end defensive prospect. Part of a bigger package, maybe. Athanasiou would though in my opinion. Svechnikov is off to a horrifically slow start, but if he heats up, and starts producing at or close to a point per game pace, I think a lot of teams would have interest in him. Point is, I don't think we would have to trade Larkin or Mantha in order to get a high end defensive prospect, and a high end defensive prospect is exactly what I'd be in the market for if I were Ken Holland. We're not going to get a Sergachev type, but we could get a Girard type, who is a highly regarded prospect that just got traded along with Kamenev, another really good prospect, and a 2nd round pick for Turris. Nothing against Turris, I've said in the past that he is underrated, but he's also a 28 year old 2C. Point is, Nashville badly wanted to add offense, and Girard wasn't as important to them (behind Josi, Ekhold, Subban, Emelin, Ellis) as he was to Colorado (top pair with Johnson). Maybe after that deal, Poile wouldn't be so eager to make another trade sending out another defense prospect for offense, but if we could get Fabbro, I'd do it. I do think there are other potential trading partners out there though (Carolina, Philadelphia, Calgary, Anaheim, Minnesota)...

These are the GM's (along with McPhee and a few others) that Holland should be calling on a daily basis. Can you imagine what Bergevin would give us for Ouellet? Galchenyuk straight up. Maybe not, but I'd take McCarron off their hands... Quebec kid for a Michigan kid. Win-Win.

Whatever you say man...

Wow, you really don't understand at all... The first few years of players development at the pro level (19-23) is what I'm talking about. The way they are handled (or mishandled) at that age is when they make it or break it. Very rarely can you mold a 24+ year old player into something he's never been at the pro level. Which is exactly what you're saying should have happened with Smith and Jurco when they moved on. "If they should have been impact players in Detroit (they weren't), then they should be in New York and Chicago, right?" No, that's not the case at all. They were already broken at that point in my opinion. I'm not going to get into specifics with these two players because a) it's been discussed ad nauseam, and b) I could care less now that they're no longer a part of our organization. However, when a player is called up, the role he is given, the amount of ice time he gets, etc, etc are all things that can and usually do affect what kind of player he will develop into as a pro. I think a few players were mishandled early in their development. You disagree. Cool. MOVE ON...

I would say it's a combination of all of those things, but for me, the biggest reason is probably the growth of the "kids" (Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou). I'd also add in the growth of our young coach. I know many are really hard on Blash and get frustrated with his constant line shuffling (I do too), but I think he's a much better coach this season, and better than most would like to give him credit for. But yeah, Mantha showing that he could be an elite power forward in this league, and Larkin showing that he could be a very good 1C, have to be the two biggest reasons for optimism, and the reason we're seeing the growth from this team this season.

I don't know how they've been handled in New York or Chicago, nor do I really care. However, there's a huge difference in mishandling a 19-23 year old player (in which I believe was the case with Smith and Jurco) and mishandling a 24-28 year old player, who is what he is at that point. Smith and Jurco are what they are, they're not going to be anything more than what they are at they're current ages. Could they have been more? I believe so, but that's something we'll never know for sure. McIlrath was once a highly regarded prospect. He didn't amount to much in New York, and he most likely won't here. Was he mishandled in New York? I have no idea, but I'm sure there are some people that would say he was. If he's a career AHLer, is that to the fault of Holland or Blashill? I wouldn't say so. And I'm sure the people that thought he was mishandled in New York wouldn't say so either.

When did I say "Oh they must be right"? I didn't. I don't care about what other teams GMs / coaches are doing with their players. Why would I? I care about how Smith does with the Rangers as much as I do how Kindl does with the Panthers. I don't think Smith and Jurco were destined to be busts. I think either of them could have carved out a reasonably successful NHL career. I still think they were mishandled in Detroit. You really want to get back into that? I don't. We disagree. Move on...

You actually expect people to come on letsgowings.com and criticize Gorton / Vigneault on how they are handling Brendan Smith? Get real. I was never a fan of Kindl. Always thought he sucked. You didn't see me go to the "Kindl traded" thread every time he had a bad stretch of games, or was healthy scratched, just to rub it in the people's faces that one time had high expectation for him. You know why? Because the day we traded Kindl, I said best of luck in Florida, or wherever else he may end up, and didn't care if he put up a 30 point season, or got demoted to Springfield. The same goes for Smith, or any other player we trade. If we trade Mrazek tomorrow and he ends up a complete bust, I'm not going to rub it in @chaps80 face for the next several years. I'm sure you will though... We won the Smith trade. I'm happy with the return. Smith isn't playing up to what I expected out of him. Anything else?

Why would I "make a peep" about players from another team? You also don't hear me talking about Kindl, or Vanek, or Sheahan, or Jarnkrok, or Janmark. It's "well I don't really care", because I truly don't. One thing I will say though, is that if Smith were putting up good numbers and proving that he were a legit top 4 defenseman like I said he was for years, I wouldn't be here saying "I told ya so" like you two love to do...

Why? Smith isn't a Wing anymore. I was a fan of him while he was here, since then, it's whatever to me. We won the trade. Great for us. Move on. No one is "hiding". There's just not much to say here. When Smith was traded I wished him luck and that was it. If he found a home in New York and put up a 30 point season, awesome. If he fizzled out and got demoted to Hartford, oh well. I was a fan of Smith the Red Wing. Smith the Ranger, I could care less about.

Larkin and Mantha are off limits for me, unless we can get an elite number one defenseman for one of them straight up, and that's not going to happen. Like has been mentioned, the best teams in the league have a minimum of two elite (or borderline elite) forwards, and one elite defenseman. We have the two forward pieces in Larkin and Mantha, so I wouldn't try to fill the defense hole by creating a hole elsewhere. No, we're not going to get an elite defenseman without trading an elite player, but I don't believe we should be trying to trade for an established elite defenseman. We should be trading for a defenseman with elite potential. Those are available without trading a Larkin or Mantha. I always go back to the Hamilton trade, who was traded for picks (a 1st and two 2nd's). I'd look to teams like Nashville and Carolina, that have a plethora of high end defenseman on the big club, as well as in the pipeline. Neither Jake Bean or Dante Fabbro are going to cost a Larkin or Mantha, or even Athanasiou for that matter. Bean and Fabbro may never become elite either, but the potential is there, and worst case they become serviceable defensemen, that didn't cost the farm to acquire. All of this will be moot anyway when we land Dahlin in next year's draft...

Very good hockey player, but yes, overrated in my opinion. I'm not sure if 16 points in 18 games is worthy of "get your s*** together", but I get what's you're saying. I think he'll be better as he continues to develop. I said it before last game and I'll say it again, another's convincing W tonight.

Nothing to do with the Griffins, but Givani Smith is finally healthy after missing the first 19 games with a high ankle sprain. He played his first game of the season last night, and went pointless in 7-4 loss to the Knights. Hopefully he has a strong season, somewhere around a point per game by the end of the season...

Any chance he gets injured and falls to us the way Liljegren did with the Leafs?... Hey, Svechnikov is injured... Maybe we have a shot at him?...

Rasmus. Dahlin.

Yeah, probably would have been a healthy scratch for half of them (or more) anyway.

Witkowski gets 10 game suspension for re-entering the ice after being ejected. Hicketts?... Nevermind... Lashoff recalled.

I disagree. The only way we can trade Ericsson is if we retain salary and throw in a sweetener...

First game since '91 that three Wings players, 23 or younger scored at least 3 points in a game. November 15th, 2017 Mantha - 2 goals, 1 assist Athanasiou - 2 goals, 1 assist Larkin - 1 goal, 2 assists November 7th, 1991 Lidstrom - 2 goals, 2 assists Carson - 2 goals, 1 assist Fedorov - 4 assists