kliq

I see what you are saying, there is some truth to that. In McCarty's case, I dont think he was a bad guy. I think he was a guy who struggled with addiction and needed help. I will say this, if Lucic was able to change and become more of a humble guy, I could probably grow to tolerate him. Kane, that one is an entire different level. Likely none of us will ever know the true him, but if its what I think it is, I wouldn't want him here under any circumstances.

I dont really care what you think Dickie. I dont like Lucic, i dont like Kane, those are the only two players I simply do not want here because I believe they are bad guys. I want to win as much as anyone, but not not with them.

lol didnt even see that. You're right, fans will turn on him if they don't see immediate success.

That's a very good point, especially in regards to the pressure. Yzerman is considered a hero here, does he really want to tarnish that. This fan base has shown it does not have a problem turning on a GM, and if Yzerman came here and the team showed any type of regression, he would become public enemy #1.

If there is one thing I ask for this post season, it is please let Chicago lose tomorrow. Anyone but them.

Dont want him here, so good. I dont get entertainment from a guy who is a complete *******. I am all for this team getting tougher, but not with that d******g.

For the last time, it is a REBUILD, what it is not is a tank job. When you get rid of every veteran on your team, you turn into the Edmonton Oilers, and it typically takes about 10 years to become relevant again. Not something I want to do, and thank god not something Holland or Mr. I want to do either. It's clear you will never accept this, I dont feel like going back and forth with you anymore. You dont believe me, just compare their roster today to the roster they had in 2012. Gone are Cleary, Fillppula, Franzen?, Datsyuk ?, Hudler, Bertuzzi, Emmerton, Holmstrom, Eaves, Lidstrom, White, Stuart, Conklin, Mursak, Conner, Brunnstrom, Kindl and Janik. In are Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, AA, Glendening, Jurco, Pulkkinen, DD, Marchenko, Ouelette, Mantha, Jurco and Mrazek. That is alot of turnover in just 4 years. Granted some of those players in 2012 at the end of the list were not major contributors by any stretch, but the point is that we are re-building.

I'd rather lose without him, then win with him.

Gee I wondering how this became a discussion about Holland, who started that??? Accept the re-build Frank.

We are setup with a core of Larkin, AA, Mantha, DD, and Mrazek, and secondary scoring in Nyquist, Abby and Tatar, and potential prospects in Jurco and Pulkkinen. We have holes on D, but I am sure that will be addressed. Its almost as if people would be happier if he were awful. I think the problem here, is people get their hopes up when we play well or appear to be a very good team, then when that reality comes crashing down after a bad loss, an early elimination etc. people get emotional and that is when you hear the "fire Holland" "fire Blashill" talk etc. You have to look at this current situation as a re-build, and accept the fact they we likely wont be contenders again for a few years when Larkin and co. mature enough to lead this team. I dont want anyone else right now as the GM of Detroit because who else out there has 3 cups as GM from essentially two generations of players, and has set said team up with a core of players that can hopefully lead us to another. Is it a sure thing, of course not. But, to truly assess this new crop, people need to give it time. We were contenders from 1993-2011, its just not reasonable to expect that to go forever. There are no GM candidates out there that are better or more experienced then Ken Holland. But if I had to choose someone if Holland chose to step down, my choice would be Yzerman.

So many things wrong here, where to even start. 1) I never posted a list, you are confusing me with the poster "PavelValerievichDatsyuk". My post simply included Green and Weiss as examples. 2) The conversation going on right now between you and many posters stemmed from a comment you made where you said "I am not conviced that Holland wants to or likes to bring in guys from the outside" PavelValerievichDatsyuk clearly proved you wrong, so now you are changing your narrative. The comment wasn't, "Holland doesn't bring in effective Free Agents" or "Holland doesn't like to bring in top tier guys, again it was "I am not convinced that Holland wants to or likes to bring in guys from the outside". 3) Once proven wrong, you then changed your argument to say "How many are in any way shape or form are stars?" by this you are implying that Holland doesn't like to bring in stars. This is also not true. We all know that "stars" generally dont hit UFA anymore, so to go after "stars" is extremely hard/rare. But, when they have become available Holland has gone after them. Did he land them all....no, but again that is not the argument here, the argument is whether or not he wants to go after them. I used Green as an example because last year he was the #1 UFA (according to TSN) available, and I used Weiss because the year we signed him he was also one of the top 5 UFA available. Suter is another one, yes we didn't land him but Holland tried. Hossa is another one regardless of who contacted who. Again, the question is does Holland like to bring in UFA stars, if he didn't, he would have turned Hossa away. That's a silly argument, what GM doesn't want to bring in star players. 4) Weiss. Nobody will argue that Weiss panned out, it is clear as day that it was a bust signing. But what is unfair, is you reference his injury history as why Holland shouldn't have signed him. (implying Holland should have saw it coming) Weiss was coming off a year with a broken wrist. A broken wrist fully healed should not be an issue at all. Other then the wrist, he only missed I believe 3 weeks between 2012 and 2013. In Weiss's first year with the Wings, he suffered from I believe either an abdominal tear or a hernia, either way, not exactly an injury easy to predict. 5) You are turning the fact that he is not signed in 2016 into a point. Of course he is not signed today, the guy suffered an injury that it pretty much going to be with him for the rest of his career and he is now 33. His situation in 2016 which is that he is 33 coming off an chronic injury vs being 30 and coming off a broken wrist where he was expected to make a full recovery are just not the same thing. Its apples and oranges. Weiss on Florida was a below average #1 center, probably one of the worst #1 center's in the league. To think that he was good enough to be a good #2 center, IMO was completely justified. Did it work out...no, but I dont think you can blame Holland for not seeing this coming. Do I think it is fair to say Holland should have re-signed Fillpula instead, yes, that would be a fair statement.

If Holland decides to step down, I'm pretty sure the job is Yzerman's or Draper's. I have zero desire to have Don Maloney as the GM of Detroit. They guy has accomplished nothing compared to Ken Holland. I think you said it best when you listed his career accomplishment in Arizona as drafting 3 players. and making it to the 3rd round 1 time. Also, you are using 2012 as an example of Arizona getting in to the playoffs with a "shoestring budget".....Arizona's cap hit that year was 61,792,917, Detroit's was 61,868,709. He had plenty of money to spend that year. http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/cap/2011/ Dean Lombardi did a great job in LA, though we are talking a 10 year re-build (7 years on his watch), I dont believe Wings fans would deal well with this which is evident to me by the reaction to the current re-build. But, if Holland stepped down, and Dean became available, I would be ecstatic with him. Jason Boterill, I have zero idea how to evaluate a guy who is an assistant GM. I have no opinion on him, but I would rather have a GM with the pedigree of a Holland or Lombardi unless they were groomed for the position (ie. Yzerman, Draper). So I guess I would say no to him.

I remember watching TSN all day on July 1st, and they had Mike Green ranked as the #1 Free Agent. I also remember the year Weiss was signed, and he was ranked as I believe the #4 Free Agent. I think when someone has a point that they are trying to push, it doesn't matter how many examples you or I give, they will just give reasons to dismiss them. ie. "He doesn't count because he is too old, not in his prime, didnt work out, too long ago, he was unproven etc." Holland has been plenty active when it comes to bringing in UFA's. Now, if the question was "Is Ken Holland bringing in UFA's that live up to their expectations?" that may be a different story.

I cant stand the guy, but I agree. I believe he is the most talented offensive player in the game. Much more of the reason for Chicago's success then Toews.

IMO he definitely deserves his jersey retired, but I dont like the idea of him having it retired with Fedorov. I feel that they both deserve their own night. When you do it together, one person always seems to play second fiddle.

To me the obvious is that he just played 82 NHL Regular season games AND a tough 5 game series. At this stage I dont think he has anything to learn at the AHL level. He looked a bit burned out in the second half this year compared to the beginning of the season, why not let him rest and focus on next year. Its also not worth the injury rish. Differant story for a guy like Mantha who has alot of development left, Larkin is just past that point.

Even if Zetterberg did give Blashill his opinion (which he has every right to do), its ultimately up to Blashill. This article is stupid.

Frank, you essentially put down the kids on this team down every time you say "this team is headed in the wrong direction" "our future looks bleak" "Holland needs to step down as he has not set us up good at all" you are essentially saying that you dont have faith in the kids. If you had faith, you would not be so down on the future. If you had faith in them, you should be happy with the direction like the way you always talk about Buffalo. Larkin is a perfect example of what I mean when I say you are down on the kids, he pretty much had an identical year to Jack Eichel, and is looked at as being at the same level as him, yet you call the Sabres the "Buffalo Eichel's" and talk about Eichel as if he is a superstar but you have never once (that I have read) indicated that you believe Larkin is anything more that an okay-good player. Your exact quote above was "That doesn't mean I'm expecting them to become superstars or anything crazy like that"...... implying that the thought of Larkin becoming a superstar is "crazy". This is what I mean when I say you are down on our kids, you show zero faith in them compared to others. As far as Tatar and Nyquist, I cant speak for other, but I never saw them as the next D & Z. That is a very elite category and those two never showed that level of play IMO. Expecting 30 goals out of them though I don't think was unrealistic. Nyquist got 28 goals in like 55 games a couple years ago, and didn't Tatar just get 29 last year? Not elite top level superstars, but with legit top line guys they can definitely be good secondary scorers. I think their drop was more so due to us losing one of the best coaches in the game, and replacing him with a rookie head coach. For the record, I agree that Stamkos likely wont come here, but you posted the question "why would he want to come here" and I gave the "pros" (as in pro's and con's). The two pro's being that we have a strong young core, as well as a rich history which I believe means something. As far as going to the Leafs, my gut tells me he is going there, but I wouldn't want to go to the Leafs if I were him. Things have simmered down this year, but if the Leafs still suck in 3 years, Babcock and Stamkos will become the new Kessel and Pheneuf and become the scapegoats for everything. Fans and media are harsh in TO, its like people on this board and Ken Holland/Jeff Blashill, but times 100.

I dont blame Holland for sending down Mantha if Blashill was only going to play him for 1-5 min per game ala AA and Andersson. If someone is going to get 1min 30 seconds of ice time, it should be Andersson. I would rather Mantha be playing 20+ min a night in Grand Rapids.

For someone who so adamantly wants to get rid of so many guys, and is so concerned with cap space, why do you want Staal? Staal is going to command a big contract due to his name, but the guy has been declining for years now. He's essentially going to end up being a more expensive better version of Brad Richards.

At the end of the day, he probably wont sign here, we are 1 of 30 teams so obviously the chances are against us. But as to why would he? I know you think very low of our kids, but we have a great young core here in Detroit. Mrazek, Larkin, DD, Mantha, AA IMO are players you build around. Secondly, this teams has a history. The possibility of having your jersey hung in the rafters next to the likes of Howe, Lindsay, Yzerman, Lidstrom does mean something.

I have always found Ouellet to be an excellent passer. Very good at getting the puck right on a shooters tape.

There is nothing wrong holding on to a few vets o help guide your young players. I agree that getting rid of E and Howard makes sense, but having Z and Kronwall on this team when guys like DD, Larkin etc. are coming up is not a bad thing. I dont ever want to put these kids in an Edmonton situation. The problem is when you hold on to too many guys, or guys with massive cap hits (ie. Toews/Kane in 6 years). Also, with Z's back in the condition it is in, I would be shocked if he plays out his contract. He has his career ending on LTIR written all over it.

Hmmmmmm this hypothetical Chicago situation in a few years sounds familiar. A team and its GM bring in multiple Stanley Cups after a long Cup drought, then after the core of the team starts to age and decline, fans throw a temper tantrum blaming the GM for the team not staying elite forever, and have a hard time accepting the re-build.

Agreed, excellent post!